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Podcast with Dan Garraway: Video & Computer Vision Technology, Machine Learning, AI, Video, TV

For the episode audio, please check out our podcast page. 

Terry Tateossian (00:00):

Today we have Dan Garraway from Wirewax who’s going to talk to us about how computer vision and artificial intelligence is going to change the landscape of video creation and video content in general and how we consume it. Welcome. Thank you. So tell me, how did you get started in this field?

Dan Garraway (01:03):

Well, we came from a combination of backgrounds, Steve and myself, the cofounders, so, production, TV production generally. We were actually making a lot of TV content at the time of, quite a lot of, I’d say transients of movement towards digital, but not really getting there. And so fairly early on in the time that I met Steve, where we were doing a lot of TV production. We started specializing in online content, which was a lot shorter form, and honestly you could turn it around much quicker. It wouldn’t be six to six months to two years to make a TV show. It’d be, you know, knock something out in two weeks and get paid on the third week. So that kind of mentality led to a much more effective business. And that’s where we start seeing the opportunities for taking what was a fairly dumb asset, video, and what is a very connected field, the internet. And I’m saying, why are these two not more connected? Why is a video the most digital and perhaps arguably the most powerful asset of our time sitting in a very digitally connected environment. And yet the computer’s got no idea what’s displaying. It’s just displaying pixels. So you know, that ultimately was the challenge we were trying to tackle with the technology.

Terry Tateossian (02:22):

So tell me how, how did you guys come up with, um, the interactivity of, uh, the content and content itself? What were some of the obstacles that you envisioned going forward into the future?

Dan Garraway (02:40):

Well, you know, I say this is, you know, coming from the creative background, but creatives are interested in creating, they’re not actually interested in the technology. The technologies are just an implementation of a way of getting to the creative. And I think that’s the same for everybody in that industry. So when we started creating this technology, we’re aware that it couldn’t just be making it, you know. The outcome wasn’t just what it was about. It’s about the method of how you make interactive experiences in the first place. So to make that interesting and exciting and just as creative as the production, you needed to use computer vision, machine learning, to understand the video. That was where we principally started. So the first hires we ever made in the company were actually computer vision. And we set about even before it’s really popularized as a concept computer vision still nascent perhaps, but it’s much more well known now than it was when we started it. It was obvious that we needed to use the technologies of the web and, broadly speaking, the technologies of computer vision and machine learning to accelerate the creation process for interactivity. And to be honest with you, we look back at the history of interactive video. That’s always been a problem because it tried to, video is always proven successful every single time it’s ever been used since the red button in the UK. They had that. In the US there’s been various implementations of very basic interactive technologies. But the problem is they’re so labor intensive to create and that stifles the creative process. So that has to change. And that’s where we started. And viewers and the content creators and now both at the same place. And this is a very exciting time for interactive, if I’m honest. Netflix really legitimize the market at the start of the year as well by investing in interactivity. So it’s a really exciting moment where people are at the same place at the same time.

Terry Tateossian (04:38):

So talk to me a bit about how do content agencies, how do they create content currently?

Dan Garraway (04:46):

In terms of TV content or YouTube like branded content?

Terry Tateossian (04:51):

Generally.

Dan Garraway (04:51):

Well, I mean the creation process, and I think this is part of the problem, hasn’t really changed. You’ve seen even very, on the face of it, very advanced companies in the movie and media industry using very antiquated processes to create content. So, you know, that’s meant when you’re making a TV or a movie, you’re still logging with manual labor, what’s happening inside the video content. You’re still using very basic implementations of technology like Excel spreadsheets to see, to work out what that content is and when it’s happening. And even just down to sending content around, you’re sending it around on hard drives, which is only a really a marginal improvement above tape, which is how people used to send it around. The industry is really getting to realize that these antiquated methods and not just slowing down the production, which is a hassle. But they’re limiting the creativity again. And there’s a really interesting white paper. Anyone look it up, MovieLabs white paper, which is all about how the movie industry is needing to look forward to the year 2030 as a vision. And it’s all around this topic, and this is exactly where we’ve been living for, for years now, is that the video production industry, the TV production movie industry, has been antiquated for a very long time. And that’s been workable. But now in an era where everyone is needing to pump out content all day long, every day, and if you’re not a brand in your TV or movie maker, you’ve got to get these TV shows out in the market much more quickly because you got to get them on an OTT, which is launching. So often we’ve see an OTT launching every week at the moment, whether it be a plus or a max or any other sort of label that’s added onto the end of the brand name these days, there is an OTT for everything. And so when you’ve got that thirst of content, those antiquated manual methods to create content just don’t work.

Terry Tateossian (06:58):

Exactly. I feel you’re pain, because I’m familiar with those antiquated methods. So talk to me a bit a bit about computer vision and machine learning. How does that get applied to content creation and content production?

Dan Garraway (07:19):

It really starts, I’d say, so mostly like pre-processing to the post production. So once, well, I use post-production slightly differently when I’m talking about it because when I’m talking about it, I’m thinking about the process of video creation that probably starts after the edits are, or at least a first edit. So you upload video content or you transfer it into our system and that’s where a bunch of about 10 to 12 processes will be applied to it to understand where scenes are first of all, you know, kind of an edit decision list to then understand what the people and objects are in that video and where they are right down to like, mine your face and where it is in the frame. Right down to scene analysis and even context of what’s happening in that scene. So all of that creates a kind of a bucket of metadata which has been automatically created, not by humans, which has been the way of doing it in the past. And once those processes are complete, it can be used to make a very fast interactive experience. So you could potentially, for example, I’ve been working with some news organizations recently and every time a politician appears, for example, you can automatically make by our profiles come up their voting record, for example, just coming up in the frame at the same time. That doesn’t need a person. You know, all those sorts of things can be applied to the day and add to the creative outcomes.

Terry Tateossian (08:54):

So, in essence, you can create a very personal experience based on the audience information that you have.

Dan Garraway (09:04):

Audio and content information, yeah. I mean it goes both sides because the minute you are using interactivity, you are slowly being able to touch and click what’s happening in the video. You can then use that data in itself to educate a better process. So whether that be in sort of retargeting afterwards for a shoppable use case, things they were interested in the video, for example. And if anybody doesn’t know why Wirewax, you know, you can see some examples on the website, Wirewax.com and you can see how you can literally touch items or interests inside the video and it then comes up with further information. In vision. You don’t have to go to other websites. This is all about inside the creative experience. You can see additional layers. I kind of think about our technology offering as a creative tool set, as Photoshop for interactive video if you’re familiar with any sort of Adobe products like that. And the viewer. I kind of consider it as them having kind of like, do you remember Minority Report like back in the day, that sort of movie where you’re interacting with information and visual sense. That’s exactly how we, how we see the viewer experiences when they want to. They can explore context and content when where it’s interesting to them that data point can then be addition to use by them. I would like to explore this further please and send some information to my email address or anything like that. Very basically or more sort of on the creator owner side, you can then use that information to make a better experience afterwards. And then on the content creator side you could, and we see a lot more of this now, people are making TV shows interactive. You can see what people actually interact with in the TV show to make a better TV show in the first place. And this has been a really interesting trend. Netflix has been doing interactive as well in the last a year, as I say. And they’ve been learning about what people do inside those interactive experiences to then generate a better experience for the next episode.

Terry Tateossian (11:03):

Yeah, and especially for advertisers, I feel like, you know, for right now the way things work is that video is just this black box and you have no idea what’s going on with the the audience, what they’re actually paying more attention to, less attention to, what to add more of, where to place advertising messages and so forth. So you’re kind of opening up the black box and you’re providing a lot more data on the behavioral analytics of how advertisers could potentially use this type of technology.

Dan Garraway (11:37):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is why smaller, more nimble agencies and content and production is going in house as well, is because people want that data and they want to own it. The days of making a hit TV commercial that, you know, wins the praises and it gets the accolades of the industry, but and somehow translate spirals into outcomes for the business. I think those are still going to happen because of the, the advertising advertising industry exists, but it will happen less. And I think the stuff that’s going to be moving the business outcomes forward, and I think this is the thing, I always stress, the things that these are moving the business outcomes forward are going to be data points that you can learn from. And that’s really the ongoing continuous success of a business. I say, and I keep stressing this business outcomes because I’m quite frankly tired of the industry and the brands industry as well. You know, referring to success as the KPI of like how many eyeballs they got to the content. I’m not alone in that by the way. Many people have, have got tired of that. Eyeballs does not mean a thing. On average Americans see 5,000 to 10,000 advertising messages a day. You’re completely pointless in that message unless you have some tie back to your business outcome. So business outcomes means interactivity. It means data points to understand the audience that they’ve imparted by the way zero party data. And it means, you know, using that decision, that data and that experience to delight the customer, to delight the viewer and to make it better, more useful journey for them in the relationship with you as a brand. That means, you know, more standardized metrics like engagement. You could ask everyone in this room, everybody has a different understanding of what engagement means. That’s a problem. And you know, these sorts of elements have never been tackled because the entire media industry and advertising media industry, I mean now, and it has been driven by the costs for impressions. You know, that’s the currency CPM and it doesn’t bear any relationship to the outcome for the business.

Terry Tateossian (13:57):

So in, in essence, I think the, uh, computer vision and AI technology apply to the actual experience of viewership. The way that I’m seeing it is that it’s taking what used to be, for lack of a better word, a billboard on the highway and creating a personalized approach with targeted, segmented, different audience segmentation piece of content that then you can kind of cater, and I’m sure eventually, you know, you’ll be able to not just offer, interactive experiences, but you could also offer very personalized experiences based on what is the psychographic profile of that particular viewer at a time of what type of data points and information you have about them and what you think that they’ll prefer: a red over a yellow shirt in the actor’s scene.

Dan Garraway (14:56):

Yeah, all of those are true and I think that, a large, again, problem with the industry is all we’ve done with video is take it from the corner of the room where it used to be a CRT display with a very big back to it, which used to have to stand out from the side of the wall through to a smaller screen that’s thinner and it’s in your hand generally speaking. That aside from color has been all that’s happened with video. Zero other than that. Okay, I’ve heard some people say, yeah, we’ve had HD great HD, better, better quality. But again, we’re not fundamentally using technology to improve the most powerful medium of our time. It’s completely ridiculous. And so that has been the case for a long time. It is changing now and there’s a real need for it to change because of the things we’re talking about. OTT launching so much more of these content distribution outlets, the marketing industry needing to use video as a much more always on concept, but it’s a struggle but it needs to happen because the outcomes will be better, more effective content for everyone and that’s more interesting. You know, I don’t want to watch four or five commercials before I want to watch the TV show that I want to watch and that needs to happen at the moment because people were lazy, didn’t actually innovate in advertising and video. They are now. So we don’t, we need to encourage these, these continued growth points, but it’s innovation in video has been surprisingly lacking.

Narrator (16:26):

Hold that thought. Let’s take a quick break and thank our sponsors. The production of the amplified podcast has been brought to you by Socialfix Media. Socialfix is a transformational growth hacker agency focused on emerging technology platforms, video and podcast production, content marketing and overall startup strategy. Socialfix has helped over 300 clients generate millions of dollars in revenue, fundraising and profit. If you’d like help launching or growing your business, visit social Socialfix.com.

Terry Tateossian (17:02):

Walk me through. I wake up tomorrow and it’s 10 years later. What is my experience with video viewership?

Dan Garraway (17:16):

I think, one of the answers to this is not what you want to hear, but it shouldn’t be necessarily coming from me alone. One of the downsides of a lacking innovation is that, and I refer to this a bit a few times, is I wear a kind of marriage counselor. That’s the way we see why wax between creatives and technologists and really, although I’ve been a creative in the past, that’s my sort of history. I’m leaning more on the technologist side now and I don’t, the answer to that question can come from technologists alone. I think the exciting thing about Charlie Brooker and Black Mirror on Netflix is that a type of thing that that TV show is the be all and end all of interactivity by the way. It’s got, you know, just the start, but it’s not being explored and it is starting to, with things like those movements. So the answer to that is probably just as diverse as virtually any answer that we can, you know, talk about with any of the subjects you’re covering. It should be as creative as the creative industry and the answer to that, I should be able to use every piece of technology, coming back to my Photoshop interactive video concept with wire racks, I should be able to use any interactive technology, any piece of technology to make a better story be told. And so with that, be me using voice to interact with the video over touching or clicking. Yes, probably. Would that be an emotion analysis analysis with my consent to be part of the experience? Would it be using computer vision to perhaps incorporate me into the show in some ways quite possibly. All of these elements could contribute. We talked about 5G as well. I mean that’s another area where low latency and edge computing will allow us to iterate with widen wide ranges of metrics on the fly about what’s happening in these tracks of experience. So for example, you could even change the, uh, the, the way the TV show is going based on the interactions happening in different places in the country or the or even the world. Like these are all very varied, um, uh, parts to how we tackle ’em or how we will wake up in 10 years time. But only now really are we starting to explore them because creative and technologists have come to the same place at the same time.

Terry Tateossian (19:44):

So give me some examples on that, like real life examples where maybe some of the challenges that we’re facing today or the way that we’re used to things being, how’s that going to be impacted?

Dan Garraway (20:00):

Well, I would start with something very simple. TV news. A lot of very antiquated technologies that cost a lot of money burn in infographics, into TV content. Those infographics like we’re probably using here today, you know, we will have a, you know, a link to our app. We’ll have a burn in title of our names and perhaps our companies, I can’t explore that without going onto Google and like typing that in, which is a very manual, boring process and nobody will probably do it. If that infographics is interactive, I can touch and explore and find out information and it connects to another piece of the web. Then I’ve got video being the equivalent of what a document was with the link. I’ve started to explore and connect the asset and what’s more to the point where it’s in the asset to the rest of the web, which is useful for both parties that the viewer and useful for for the content creator because it gets more valuable outcome for everyone.

Terry Tateossian (21:03):

So you’d be able to watch the presidential debates and guess when a candidate mentions a particular fact, you can have a pop up that will display the fact you can look more into that or?

Dan Garraway (21:20):

Yeah. And, and as I say, it could be very diverse. How that plays out. The storytelling and narrative elements of this are probably the most interesting explorations because you can start to see that when creators are not thinking in that two dimensional, perhaps broadcast side of the business, which is, I’ve got this, you know, story and I’m going to broadcast it to you. What if the, it turns into a two way conversation? Well, if that viewer is part of the creative process, I mean, you’ve seen this happen already. It’s not completely new. I mean, everyone’s tried these sorts of things, but the difference is now making it scalable, which is what we’re about as a technology company. So for example, you know, there’s been, you know, very successful sort of Stargate or something like that. An MGM property, which have been very successful outside of their commissioned seasons on TV and movies to connect with audiences and they’ve actually reacted to their loyal audiences. That’s because Stargate is a viable show outside of, and it has a very loyal fan base, but there’s no reason to say that, you know, you can iterate with your audience and make TV shows that are narratively changing accordance to the audience’s involvement and interaction when you start to have the technologies which speed the process up versus slow it down.

Terry Tateossian (22:53):

We covered a bit about the utopian view of how fantastic things could be. What would be some of the negative effects of this type of technology?

Dan Garraway (23:04):

Well I think it’s the same probably concerns with many new technologies. We’re always slightly afraid of them I think because generally it wields power in fewer and fewer places. And so, I’m an advocate for the general movements of the industry for the last few years to be more open and transparent about privacy. For example. One of the elements of that is, of course, computer vision can understand what’s going on. Then if facial recognition, other things come into that as well. You know, I think being as open and transparent as possible, um, is, is critical to doing this in a way which encourages people to participate and feel safe with these new ideas and creative approaches. But, you know, I, I get very bored in these sort of discussions with like, how to, you know, everything’s going to collapse on us and the world’s going to be occupied by machines. It’s not that because we are the people making this sort of stuff and this is the excitement of it is that we can participate in this and we have more ownership over that future than we would without it. So I think the principle for me is you offer viewers something they value and they’ll give you something back. So if that is the principle behind every sort of data point exchange, I think that’s a good thing. And that’s where creative pays. It plays a really important part. If you’re giving me a video, great. You know, 28,000 other businesses, they’re going to give me 10 videos a day on Instagram and every other social network. It doesn’t mean anything to me. If your message is slightly more impactful because that director was slightly more awake on that day, great. But if you’re starting to think as a business, how does this video strategically play into my business outcomes? And the interactivity extends into that. Then how. That’s where you start to translate creative into business outcomes and that’s where it gets exciting for all parties because they can see interactions they’re doing actually generate a better experience, whether that be the personalized itinerary on a travel video, for example. So now could go and take that and explore where and when I’m going to where I’m going to go on my holiday or anything like that. So, you know, it’s offering something to the viewer can then can then make the data exchange more equitable, equitable, I think.

Terry Tateossian (25:35):

Ultimately, the emerging media technology, so Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, there I suppose you can say kind of leaning in that direction because they’re, you know, they have a meteoric rise to the story functionality. So, you know, people obviously want that feature in the content that they’re consuming. By seeing real time what the creators doing, what they’re tagging, what they’re linking to, and they’re getting a better experience. They can react to things they can communicate with the other audience members and so forth. So this is obviously something that cannot be ignored by the Hollywood industry as well as any of the streaming services right now. So how long do you think it will be before we start seeing that type of technology rolling out?

Dan Garraway (26:27):

Well, I mean, it’s already happening. I mean, this could be launching next year, for example, Jeffrey Katzenberg and Meg Whitman launching that. And I think there’s some exciting aspects of that. I’ve seen some of the early versions of how that’s coming together. And I think it’s about time, honestly, that Hollywood was starting to tackle these sorts of different storytelling pieces. I don’t think it’s exclusive, by the way. I don’t think that though, just because we’ve got stories on Instagram and and other elements that are a bit more short form vertical formats. It doesn’t mean that that’s the only format. Now it’s again, diversity is like, they’re still going to be a place for a movie, a sit down watch feature film where you perhaps don’t even want to interact. There’s always going to be a place for TV episodes that have a more linear look and feel to them. I think there’s a thirst for viewers to be as creatively engaged. And I think that’s why, to be honest with you, when any product is launching, like take talks for example, which is obviously a little bit more notoriety recently when any of those things are launching in video and challenging the industry about people get behind them and are very excited about them. Honestly, we don’t yet know how tech talk is going to translate into business outcomes, but early adopters are probably doing it more for the marketing prowess of, of being involved than anything else. But, I think as an industry and as viewers, we get excited about it because innovation in the medium, something that we have just completely lacked. And so video from the Hollywood side of it with Quimby and others are not going to discount that there’s a, there’s some very exciting stuff happening underneath and beneath the scenes at the moment with some other very large media companies. It’s, it’s a good, is a good next five to 10 years of content, interesting times, I think, with technology we’ve done amongst it. And I think we will be the better for it.

Terry Tateossian (28:29):

Good point.

Dan Garraway (28:31):

Hopefully

Terry Tateossian (28:34):

I always say marketers ruin everything, so I’m sure we’ll figure out a way to take advantage.

Dan Garraway (28:41):

It’s possible. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it’s because I think though I come back to that point I was making earlier that I don’t think marketers can be to blame for the fact that their promotions, their livelihood are all related to fairly abstracted KPIs from real business outcomes. You know, I think, that’s also the downfall in my opinion of a large part of the very large media and advertising companies in the world is like, well what the industry is being preoccupied with for way too long is eyeballs and how to get as many eyeballs to content as possible. It then moved on a little bit to social shares. How many people can you get to share your content? Everyone got a little bit obsessed with that. But none of these things really indicate like where your relationship is with your viewer, where relationship is with your customer and leads I think quite a lot of self-indulgence. In my view, there is no place for self-indulgence in marketing videos and communications. Like if we used to face this a lot early on in our business. We used to walk into meetings with very well known companies and it’d be like, oh, these interactive elements. Yeah, they’re in the vision. They’re in the visual and it’s like, well, we can switch them off. But yes, they are like by default. And that’s because you’re educating your audience, you know, that they can interact with something and that’s part of that. And they’re like, yeah, we just don’t want anything in the, in the video. We just want to sort of made really nice, beautiful video. And it’s like, well, you can make these interactive elements beautiful as well. That’s part of the creative process. But that was all coming from this mentality of like, I want a really nice piece. I can put my show room. Whereas that’s what that motivation was. I’m interested in how can I make something that I’ll put on Vimeo or probably not on YouTube, but make to the market. And everyone will say, “Oh, you’ve made us such beautiful film.” Well, a beautiful film has its place, but that place for me is more often than not in the narrative area. And the consumer area of like storytelling and, you know, not as a brand necessarily. If it starts in that place, certainly not, it’s gotta be like not how do we make a really beautiful video. It’s gotta be what are we trying to do with video step one. Like that one video is now going to create a more tangible relationship with our viewer and our customer. Okay, well then we’ve got nothing in the conversation past this point about a beautiful video that given, right? We’re not going to go and make a shit video. We want to make somethings that looks nice. But step two then is if that’s our intended outcome, a better, more tangible relationship with our customer, then what are we doing in that video, which relates back to those, that mission. Are we going to just get what we need from views, our views counter? No. are we going to get like a percentage of, you know, completion. I mean possibly, but interaction is the only way, honestly, that you can do that because then you can start to say, well, the viewers sent lent forward on this, they interacted with this product. They then went on to investigate further. And by the way, these are not just stats I’m reading off now. There’s a fairly well known industry studies now from IPG media amongst others who say that interactivity makes 47% more time spent with video. It increases purchase intent, which has to be one of the most important metrics by nine times. And it’s 32% more memorable because people physically interact. There’s a tangible cognitive movement. So you know, these elements make for a more outcome driven use of video. And that’s a good conversation to have for the marketing industry, I think.

Terry Tateossian (32:42):

Absolutely. I mean anytime you align your business goals, which whatever they may be, brand awareness, demand generation, whatever that is to the content that you’re creating, it gives you a lot more reasons to produce what the customer audience is looking for. But the way that I’m seeing this also is, um, it’s the type of technology I feel like that will just obliterate the ad. I feel like it’s just not going to be necessary, right? Because ultimately you can place those type of cues into the actual content. So if you’re looking to just put out a straight-up advertisement or commercial, you no longer have to do that. You can actually insert your message and your product right into content that the viewer wants to see rather than interrupting them while they’re watching.

Dan Garraway (33:37):

Yeah, and I would argue by the way that already exists. I think when people hear that often their reaction is, “Oh, that just sounds like, you know, forced advertising.” I don’t actually think that’s the case. If you watch anything, um, people have a natural interest in what’s in the video or in the TV episode, you know, people have always wondered and otherwise we wouldn’t have like people going and buying like sneakers that celebrities wear. People are already naturally interested in those things. So connecting those things to the useful part of technology here and allowing them to interact and find out what it is or how they can explore it further and buy it potentially are all just useful elements. And by the way, I just think as well that this is part of like a better way of working for the industry because it’s a race to the bottom just to keep making more content. We’ve got to take a pause and say, “why are we making this content?” Because, you know, even OTTs and everyone else we’re talking about is really struggling on these production methods to get this content out. You know, your, your guy here had to walk up stairs and, and move around with all this camera kit and all this gear. It’s expensive, it’s annoying and it’s hassle to make content. So, you know, doing more of it doesn’t necessarily produce a better outcome. You’ve got to, you’ve got to like think about what you’re doing and what inside that experience relates back to the value to have to do probably just the right amount. You don’t need to make a hundred videos a day if you’re making one video a day that’s really successful and engaging.

Terry Tateossian (35:14):

I just literally had that conversation I think today. Yes. No, absolutely. So tell me the one thing that you would like our audience to take away from this episode.

Dan Garraway (35:31):

I think, I think now’s the time with technology just to experiment and, if you, if you were willing to put some work in, and I say that with purpose you can get some amazing business outcomes through force. I think the industry is starting to look at interactivity through Netflix and other validators in the market. But why, why be forced, you know, get ahead of everyone by taking a real purposeful take an approach to what technology can do for your video content. And, you know, there’s a promise land of a lot of rewards for people who are willing to invest right now. Because, you know, that the race to the bottom of making more video content is where everyone is going, most of the normal brands are going at the moment.

Terry Tateossian (36:27):

No, I agree. So how can people find you, Dan?

Dan Garraway (36:31):

Well, on our website is Wirewax.com. We do all the socials and stuff. I’m sure as well. I’m not big on the socials myself personally, but I used them for observing. But yeah, I would say it’s the best place. And of course I’m contactable myself on LinkedIn, which is probably the only social network I do use. So yeah, and just sign up and have a play. And I think, feel free to ask questions. It’s a new landscape and I don’t think we should be shy of admitting that. I personally have, you know, my cofounder as well, Steve. I have 10 years of experience in this particular area and we’re very willing to give it a, we’re working at sea level right across the media and publishing spaces, particularly right now, challenging their approaches to the way they use the medium. And we’re very happy to do that because we believe in the education of our experience about what has worked, but more importantly, sometimes what has not worked to make a better more successful outcome for everyone.

Terry Tateossian (37:32):

Wise words. And thank you very much for joining us today.

Dan Garraway (37:35):

Thank you. My pleasure.

Narrator (37:37):

Thanks for listening to the Amplified podcast. Follow us on our social channels and subscribe on Apple and Google podcast, Spotify, Podbean, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the next episode. Stay tuned for more trailblazing insights, energy and culture to help fuel your pursuit in the modern digital era.

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