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Terry Tateossian (00:40):

So on today’s episode, we have Brett Garfinkel who is the CEO and founder of Sylo. And we’re here today and talking about fraud specifically influencer fraud. So welcome, Brett.

Brett Garfinkel (00:56):

Thank you for having me. I’m also the co-founder and co CEO. I love my business partner, Eric Schwab. I’ve known for 15 years and I don’t want to sell him short to Eric. No one knows this space better globally than Eric. I’ll tell you that much from everything from how media is being bought and sold to the data to fraud methodology, to the privacy laws. He’s terrific. So shout out to him.

Terry Tateossian (01:26):

Let’s talk a bit about what, what does silo do and how did you guys come up with the idea to start this type of technology?

Brett Garfinkel (01:35):

Sure. first of all, understand I’m from the vending side I’m I’m sales, I’ve run media sales teams, global teams for wow. Coming up on 25 years. And I started out television, moved into print in the nineties back when I’m dating myself. This is awful, but back when people read magazines a lot I was barely kicking then too. So we had, I was used to Nielsen. When I was in print, we had ABC statements to verify new Stan subscription. And then I moved into digital video, live streaming, believe it or not in 2004, many, a TV network. This is predating YouTube, my damn channel ripe TV, et cetera. And we were using comScore for website traffic. Eric will tell you he moved to the beginning of spot X and this should come into the conversation later, because we’ve seen this happen recently with the emergence of a third party verification and how it benefits an industry.

Brett Garfinkel (02:44):

It was the video ad network, what became programmatic buying. And that became the viewability issue that was eventually solved by the likes of moat DoubleVerify IAS. So they had that as well. And then I found myself six years ago or so I was asked Bertelsmann RTL group brought me in they had an MCN multichannel network. This is back when 90% of the influencers were all on YouTube. Believe it or not, that was only like three years ago or so. And and I brought in, you know, Eric and I were running revenue companies doing a a hundred million in revenue and we are self reporting, but Eric pulled me aside in early 2015. And he said he told me the story about when he was at spot X. And he said, look, I’m telling you, it’s moving to the other platforms.

Brett Garfinkel (03:44):

The creators will no longer. It won’t just be YouTube. There’ll be on Instagram. There will be video on Twitter, on Facebook and, and it will be overwhelming for a lot of brands at first. And he said, you know, there, there, there has to be better intelligence. Now we didn’t know any better. We were vendors. So to us better intelligence was like Moneyball ticking, looking at statistics, data metrics differently than what people were looking at to understand how to better collaborate. That’s what we wanted to do. Originally. I remember there was someone that an ad agency and they said they took out Poland spring water bottles. I could’ve just said, well, their bottles, I gave them their they’re not paying me. They should be he placed it around. He said, each one of these, he goes, this is you two people at one down.

Brett Garfinkel (04:35):

This is Instagram. This is Facebook, Twitter. He said, they’re all different silos. They have their own analytics monetization practices. And he said, it’s so confusing. I know my audience is everywhere. I’m getting reports. I don’t know what’s up, what’s down, what’s left or right. So we were like, what if we could build one silo for all just where you go in and you could look at everything equally and understand it equally. And so it started out more of this intelligence agency and we worked with a mountain Dew, a PepsiCo, good people over there. They wanted to start the first ever brand led MCN multichannel network made a lot of sense. And so we came in, we were YouTube certified and silo actually was an MCN if you will. But we were looking at, we told them we, we evaluated the data and we said the most mal data we could actually see as authenticated data, people are like, well, creators would never do that, but create a resource signed to big contracts with PepsiCo, they will.

Brett Garfinkel (05:39):

And sure enough, they did. And we were able to see stuff that no one was looking at that time. And it was unbelievable tasks. And what we did was we tagged all of the content. So we knew if you were talking about different subject matters because that’s life you, when you’re with your friends, you talk about movies, fashion, travel, food I could keep on, and you don’t have the same influence on every subject. So we were trying to help the creators and the brands understand that, Hey, creator X, when you talk about this, your audience loves it on Instagram, but they don’t like it on YouTube. And when you do this and we, we create a value system and it was our first time really looking at this information fast forward to like a year and a half. We’re now mid 2017. And we realized how terrific this data was.

Brett Garfinkel (06:25):

And we started taking it out, out there, brands and agencies, and they came back to us and they said, this is wonderful. Like, this is terrific, but we don’t need another intelligence agency. What we need is third party. We need an independent, unbiased measurement verification source. So that’s what triggered all of this. We knew that would be a very difficult road travel because you’re battling for substream. W who gives you the right to be the standard? And we’re not the standard. I tell everyone right now, if you’re a brand marketer, your job is to create best practices and standards for yourself, your company. And if everyone’s using a similar, then eventually it regulates the industry. It helps and progress. So that’s really how the company came about. It was two salespeople with a bunch of tech guys, and we were just giving them the information from the frontline. And we heard the need then, but this was before fraud. Like the fraud did not start until beginning of 2018. We knew it was there, but it wasn’t until 2018 when the New York times came out with that article. And it really started all the brands started asking us, can you help us show me the bots? They said, show me the bots. Let’s talk a bit about silo. And what does the platform do specifically? Well, it’s, there’s two areas of it. You know, the first thing is verification fraud detection.

Brett Garfinkel (07:57):

So first of all, we don’t like to use fraud. It’s a legal term, but the industry understands it. So you just say that short, but really it’s sophisticated invalid traffic. Now, if you look this up, Google this, you will see invalid traffic IVT. We’ve gone way past IVT. IVT was people buying bots, where they immediately responded. When you posted, it was almost like a flat line. You didn’t see a gradual growth of performance. Okay? The minute the post went out, the bots were trained to attack it with a like, or a comment or something. And that was very basic. If you have a chance to make a lot of money by simply posting on Instagram, you will learn to game the system. And that’s what they’ve done. There are things now called slow drips are over abusing giveaway loops follower, trains I could go on for.

Brett Garfinkel (08:56):

But it’s about like, what’s a follower train. Well, it’s the people I follow you, you follow me. We follow him. He follows her and that’s we get together. And we were just finding a way to build drive someone. Else’s audience stars, even though they’re not really interested in us, you know, the, the thing I could always jump ahead here. But one thing I want everyone to understand is you hear bots. It’s very popular these days. It is a distraction from what’s really happening. You are not, brands are not buying bought percentage. If anyone walks into your office and says, I could show you the bots. I think you and I had this conversation once. And I, I showed me, right? Imagine you have two creators and they both have 10 followers. It’s keep it simple. And you love them both, but you could only afford to work with one of them.

Brett Garfinkel (09:47):

And someone walked into your room and said, person a has a 50% are fake five out of 10 North bots and person B two of the 10 are fake. Okay. Who would you invest in if you had to investment one of those, and most people say the one with less bots and that’s it. And we said, well, one more bit of insight. Well, if the five who are real are highly engaged whether it’s branded or not the post but for the other person, the eight who are real, only six of the eight are following because the person did a giveaway loop. Hey, follow me. And you could win this laptop or trip or something. And, but they’re not really following that person. So who now is the more effective reach, effective engagement. And then everyone flip flops and they go, no, that the other person now that’s who I want to work with. So then we remind them. So you’re pointing to the person who has a higher bot percentage. So what does that tell you? That’s not what you’re buying. It also means whoever walks into your office and says, I could show you the bots. They are scraping data. They are violating privacy laws, general data protection rights. You do not want to be associated with things that are liable now,

Terry Tateossian (11:08):

But then how, how does it account in the analytics? If there are more bots, wouldn’t that reduce the overall engagement rate

Brett Garfinkel (11:20):

Particular? Well, that’s first of all, what is engagement rate? What’s the calculation. So likes comments divided by what followers? Vanity metric that has so many holes, it’s it should be called Swiss cheese. So

Terry Tateossian (11:39):

What did it make sense that if you have more bots in your profile that your metrics would be off, or do you not calculate the robots once you know who they are, you kind of remove them from silos

Brett Garfinkel (11:54):

Certification. That’s what we’re talking about. First and foremost, it’s licensed. You go in and you show that your audience look, we all have bought, so you can’t stop that. I bet you this morning, you woke up and you’re like, who are these? And you look at me, you can’t, you can the game one far a day. That’s one more than me. So what happens is there there’s activity. What we’re looking for is authentic audience and the validity of performance. Okay? So if you find, if, if that exists, that is a healthy environment to be working with. Okay. And you will see better performance leads to a pathway of ROI that everyone wants. This is what they want right now, the job of the industry is to weed out the bad actors from the good, okay. And the minute we do that, you’re going to the whole industry is going to start tidying up.

Brett Garfinkel (12:52):

Okay. Regulations will be in place. I always say it’s the first step is that the agency the principal agent problem, we have to say, you’re a vendor. Okay? You have a roster that I could search. You have tools. You are executing campaigns. You have a horse in the race. Okay. Then we have measurement. That is separate, cannot be the same. I I’m amazed at how many people in this industry are unaware of this. Now, why is that? Luck? I mean, we, we, there’s a lot of people in this space, maybe who haven’t worked in other forms of media, where third party verification is just has been there since the start. I mean, practically. I maybe there’s a lot of people on PR side. That’s not accustomed to this. They’re used to giving product, Hey, thank you. Talk about it. And now they they’re paying for it.

Brett Garfinkel (13:48):

And they’re friends with the creators. And Hey, I don’t want to have to ask you to do something that might be deemed dangerous or say, it’s not, it’s not what we found is this, that there’s a right way of doing this. And it’s not that difficult, but there are extra steps. There’s an extra step because we don’t have an ad unit on the other end, we have a person. And that means there’s privacy laws. That means there’s a right way and the wrong way to collecting the data and transacting the data. Okay. There’s the pipelines have to be in place the infrastructure. And it has to be adhering to the laws that are in place. We have to protect creators, but we also have to protect the brands, the brands right now, the brand marketers have a hundred percent of the risk in this space that does not exist in any other form of media that they’re buying.

Brett Garfinkel (14:42):

So if you’re a creator and I’m paying you right now, you could do different nefarious activities to grow your audience during the campaign grow the performance. And I have no way of really knowing. And that’s how the industry was set up. There’s no verification vendors on paying or telling me how it did. The creators are taking snapshots. Can we stop with that, please? Hey, take a snapshot and send it to me, go on Google right now. And Google, how to manipulate a snapshot in less than 30 seconds. And then the response everyone says to me is, Oh, but I trust them.

Terry Tateossian (15:22):

Yeah. I mean, that’s right now, the standard of how you provide metrics and analytics on a, you know, whatever it is, a branded campaign is the creator creates the content. They take a picture with the product, they snapshot it and they send it to you. And then, you know, three days later, it’s off their channel and, or to be found and you just have that snapshot

Brett Garfinkel (15:48):

Nonsensical. I can’t believe we’ve gone this far. Look, the reality is this. We can verify this. They have to authenticate. First of all, to see all the actual real data that matters. If they’re signed up as a business account, you see reach impressions. All the ins engagement rate that we have, this, these are more accurate measurement, performance measurements saves all the story data. You don’t see that other than them being authenticated and signed up as a business account, then you need someone who’s has no horse in the race, nothing to gain by the brand, working with them and wanting them to come back and keep giving them money. Okay. If I have a full service tech platform or a self service, it doesn’t matter. I want you to stay on it. And if you’re using it and the performances of the campaigns are less than what you hoped for as a brand, you might leave my platform. And so that’s why they can create their own homework. You need a third party on bias that the brands trust have vetted properly, who are doing things the right way.

Terry Tateossian (16:52):

So it’s like a ratings basically for individuals.

Brett Garfinkel (16:55):

Was that a silo certified? Yeah. what it is is right now to tell you, it’s the good housekeeping seal of approval. It is showing the brand that this is a healthy talent pole, that their audience is authentic, that the performance is valid, and then it doesn’t stop there. That actually means that you will have better performance with your campaigns because of those factors. So yes, it’s done lucky. This is not nothing you could do at the push of a button. And I know we live in a society right now where we want everything to be behind. We could hide behind the door, push a button and get all of the intelligence. You know, it’s, it’s funny. I, in the world of venture capital, it seems like the word venture to me always was like an adventure. We’re taking a venture here. We’re taking a risk with something, but could be exciting and really know they want the safe bet.

Brett Garfinkel (17:48):

They want know that your business is already killing it. You’ve got it’s easy. Yes. And the reality is, you know, it’s like dating apps too. No one gets rejected. You ever think about that? You’d never get rejected. You just swipe, swipe, swipe, and you get acceptance. Or maybe they never saw, I don’t know, no one says no directly to you. You’re just way. But that’s the thing. It’s, it’s people. We, we don’t the handle rejection that, well, apparently as a society and the reality is, so we want things to be very immediate and hidden where I’m not getting in the way of someone’s privacy or whatever. My mother there, that I could just stay in the back, push a button, and I have all the answers in front of me. But the reality is it doesn’t work that way. There’s authenticated data.

Brett Garfinkel (18:37):

That means creators have to opt in. Okay. And then to gather the data from them, you need their permission. You need their permission. If I want to see your data, I have to invite you into a campaign. And you say, yes, how is that different from anything with LinkedIn or private accounts on Instagram? I would like to follow you. Who’s asking, Brett’s asking. I know Brett. Yes. And that is the right way of how data from a private source is share. And it creates the infrastructure of doing things the right way. Now, if the creator says, no, and you’re the brand, how will you respond to that? Where are they hiding? Okay. So the reality is this you once asked me what’s the issue with authentication. There’s no issue on our end. The only issue is that the creators right now, they see this.

Brett Garfinkel (19:30):

They’re not aware of the service ahead. OK. They, they ahead of their brand partners telling them they need to, according to the agreement they have, they have to be authenticated. And they see it as to be paid. I have to do this. They don’t actually see the benefits until they actually are in it. And they realize how the privacy of their data, how it works and how it leads to increasing brand sales, because there’s transparency now. So that’s really what everyone has to do is really look at it. Verification as a positive for the entire industry, weed out the bad actors, and then more money will come in because there’ll be more confidence, accountability, and better efficiencies. Hold that thought.

Terry Tateossian (20:16):

Let’s take a quick break. And thank our sponsors. The production of the amplified podcast has been brought to you by social fixed, medium social fixed dizzy, transformational growth hacker agency focused on emerging technology platforms, video and podcast, production, content marketing, and overall startup strategy. Social fixed has helped over 300 clients generate millions of dollars in revenue fund raising and a profit. If you’d like help launching or growing business

Brett Garfinkel (20:48):

Visit [inaudible] dot com.

Terry Tateossian (20:52):

How do you account for anomalies in the data? Like for example some of the events that could trigger a potential spike in a campaign could be legitimate, not necessarily bots and just due to marketing of a particular campaign or give away or whatever it is. I love giveaway

Brett Garfinkel (21:17):

Getting things that people give me. You know, it’s first, let’s talk about being certified and then I’ll break it down to anomalies when you’re to be certified, we’re looking at multiple components. So I’ll, I’ll make it simple because we don’t want people to game the system here. We can’t give it all away, but you’re looking at performance, data engagements, reach impressions. You’re looking at audience growth, you’re looking at demographics. Okay. So we have all those components. Now, when anomalies take place that are statistically in line with what we call robotic activity you will not be certified. Okay. Simple as that. So now let’s break it down by an anomaly. Cause we’ve talked about good anomalies, you know, Hey, I got an engaged, boom. It spikes up. That’s good. That doesn’t do that. Okay. But the reality is this. If I was just looking at one of those components engagements, you have a post that comes out.

Brett Garfinkel (22:20):

We are seeing everything in real time. Okay. We’re not pinging the the public API or scraping. So we’re limited to how often we see it with authenticated. We’re seeing everything in real, you know, every three to five minutes intervals, they’re coming in all the data and we’re able to take different segments of that growth of that performance and compare it to other segments within that same post, as well as every historic post that we’ve had in real time of that creator to see if it’s not in line, we also have what we call the robotic growth posts of what those look like. And we compare it to all three constantly. If anything is directly in line with the robotic growth, statistically speaking, anyone data science will tell you that that’s exactly what’s happening here. And it’s been proven with us. We’re a hundred percent confident in this, but we did not take this lightly.

Brett Garfinkel (23:20):

We’ve been doing this for almost two years, but we’ve had data for four years. And the people who are doing the quick push a button, see the bot percentage and the interest screeners, the hype auditors. And, you know, we could have a long conversation about this, but let’s just look at the data. Someone gave me a great analogy about this. They said, that’s equivalent to imagine you’re hungry. You want fraud detection, you’re hungry for it. Just like being hungry for food. Imagine you eat the worst food on the worst, fast food menu that exists on the planet. And you eat that for every meal of your life. You will not be healthy. It will have adverse effects on you as you can hold. And as time goes on, especially that’s what that is when you’re evaluating things, using the wrong type of data that has minimal that’s the path you’re leaning as compared to a sit down proper, you know three star, five star, whatever we call five star meal, you know, that’s what this is about, but to do this, it has to be authenticated to you have to evaluate everything in real time and constantly monitor.

Brett Garfinkel (24:38):

That’s the other thing I don’t know how picking out like bots or scraping allows you when people to over abuse, giveaway loops, follow me, and you could win this and then need to delete that post two or three days later. They don’t see that you only see that if someone’s authenticated in. So we see that it’s getting more sophisticated. Now people are purchasing likes engagements, support, previous posts, right? So they’re trying to show that gradual claim. So look, it’s very sophisticated right now. So the point to every brand is if I’m moving forward and I’m implementing best practices and standards, the first thing is we are working with those who are certified. Why wouldn’t you now, if you want to say maybe 80% we are, but there are some people that we’ve worked with for years are celebrities, and we’ve liked the outcomes of it. That’s fine. That’s your prerogative. That’s fine there. But the point is set a standard of certifying protect your, your dollars. There is a 15% influencer fraud tax we call right now, minimum that exists right now, 15%. So every campaign you’re doing, that’s a minimum you’re throwing to waste. So the reality is we should be removing that. And at the same time, you’re actually going to perform better by doing that because you’re working with those with valid performance authenticated, all the answers.

Terry Tateossian (26:08):

Yeah. I mean, I can see the tremendous value in having this type of data because not only do you see real time performance of a particular message or narrative that you’re promoting, but you can also look at lookalike type campaigns and figure out, okay, you know, what type of influencers, the right one, for me, not necessarily the one that I may be working with now, or maybe that one in particular is perfect. How can I find more like that? Because when you don’t have the data, you’re kind of always you guessing and, and operating with the lights off and, you know, eventually hope to hit a good one. This, I think eliminates that guesswork. If I, if I allow it, okay, the

Brett Garfinkel (26:54):

Right now, and this exists, the vendors have their own, Hey, we will protect you. Imagine if there were like 700 DMVs, you’re getting a driver’s license. Think about it. And three of them gave me a license, but 10 of them wouldn’t. Do you want me on the road? I don’t know. I mean, do you want me to driving your kids around? I don’t know the point is it doesn’t work. We don’t evolve. Same thing. If they’re all measuring, however they are measuring. I don’t know. They say they’re getting the data this way. Are they getting in real time where they built to analyze the data from start, where they built, it was the foundation of their company to aggregate and organize and analyze the data, the metrics, I don’t believe so. There’s, we’re getting sales and setting things up in campaigns and executing, et cetera.

Brett Garfinkel (27:46):

So they can’t be the one. So we have to find a verification that is doing it the right way. And have the brands, vet those, and then have them work with the supply side. I’m, I’m the farthest thing from anti vendor. I’m, I’m a, I’m a vendor. Okay. In nature. So I think what happened is let’s just really quick, take a step back and look at what happened with the video ad network, programmatic business. You know, you had your tremor videos, you had your bright roll spot exchange. You, me, I could go on for days and they, they aggregated all of these networks and brands where they built the pipeline, the supply pipeline and brands were using them. And then there was the demand side dashboard. It became like a trader desk. So everyone’s going in and they’re typing along and finding the best deals.

Brett Garfinkel (28:39):

And the business went to about 2 billion. And then all of a sudden, someone noticed that when you go below the fold, there was a video unit. Do you ever see that it’s all in play, they counted you as a view. And then if you never viewed him and someone paid for your view, right? And then someone walked into an office and said to the brand, is this your ad? And they were pointing to a porn site and there was their ad. Did you verify this? And they’re like, no. So what happened was the implementation of moat and DoubleVerify and IAS. And this $2 billion industry then went to a $40 billion industry. Because now you implement confidence, accountability, efficiencies, and people trust it. There’s transparency. What they’re saying. So we are at that stage right now in influencer marketing when, before the implementation. And I think the people who are the wiser understand this, but they need to implement a need. Someone I’ve heard predictions that it will be fully implemented in a max two years. Probably too long. I mean, they, they say they’re waiting for cataclysmic event

Terry Tateossian (29:54):

Cataclysmic event. What is a cataclysmic event in influencer advertising?

Brett Garfinkel (30:01):

It could be a class action lawsuit. I mean, I think people always say like, laugh at me when they bring this up the parties. Well, let let’s, let’s say this, you grab 50 influencers. You show them. I mean, I don’t want to throw people under the bus here, but you show them, I’ve mentioned a couple of companies and we’ve done this. We’ve looked at type in your handle, is that you? And they go, ah, yeah. Did you give them permission to show your data? Nope. And this is a company that is brands are paying to evaluate people like you and see the numbers that you did not give them permission to share. And who are those companies who are paying for your data? Big brands, huge brands. These huge brands do not want to be another Facebook analytic, Cambridge Analytica. And I think they don’t want that press. And if they find out that way, we are violating the, the CC PA California consumer privacy act, and the protection act is that and the GDPR and all the other States are moving towards this. They don’t want to be associated with us. And I think that would cause cataclysmic defense.

Terry Tateossian (31:23):

That’s a good point. I mean, privacy laws in general, I think are getting a lot more stringent and a lot more,

Brett Garfinkel (31:29):

Aye, look, I, I want this, I think this is best for everyone. I want us to do things. Right. Okay. And there’s a lot of people who have a negative when they see social media influencers, which I think you ask kids, that’s the number one. That’s what they want to be when they grow up. It should not be that easy. You know, I w I think I might have told you once, what if we were all golfers, there was no such thing as the PGA, just, everyone’s a golfer. You’re a golfer. You’ve played golf before. Maybe I played golf. Yeah. We’re all golfers are my buddy here. Tiger woods. He’s a golfer too. We’re all golfers. And then someone says, we’re, we’re creating the PGA and you can’t kick the ball out from the tray. You can’t take mulligans every time you eat here are the best practices and standards. And they have to have a PGA card to perform in the PGA. And, and once it’s established, they are, where do the brands go? Do they come to you or not? No. They go to the PGA because it’s brand safe.

Terry Tateossian (32:26):

See evolution, I guess, of how everything kind of gets created. Right. In the beginning, everybody is a caveman and then the caveman graduates. And

Brett Garfinkel (32:37):

Do you remember, you say you don’t watch TV, so does anyone here know the show Deadwood? Yes, I do. I do watch that. Okay. So you did you’re right. You’re right. There we go. Winner. So what, what was happening in Deadwood? That was fascinating was the emergence of a town organization. They had people who were running you know running their own let’s say their, their restaurant or their bar, but they handled things their own way. You know, someone came in and they like, they could murder the person. It was okay. But then you bring in the sheriff and then you have certain laws and everyone in the town adheres to those laws and all of a sudden the town as it evolves, because everyone’s moving in order of those laws that are in place to protect them and to allow for evolution, people have the ability to open up their own businesses and things like that.

Brett Garfinkel (33:30):

And that was a fascinating part of the storyline. Sorry, I’m moving away from the mic. So I, I think let’s look at our industry the same way. We, we, we saw there was over 740 vendors right now, supply side vendors, right. Hmm. Okay. We have how many creators who are influencers? I’m putting quotes around that. I mean, if there was a lot right now and do they really all have that influence, can we measure their influence? We absolutely can. The measurement, which will be the silo score that we’ve been developing for two years is a combination of everything, of the health, of the audience, the health of the performance, the validity of the performance. It will be certain metrics that come into play. And it’s not for us to determine it’s for brands, brand marketers, to sit and vet and have a conversation and say, this makes sense at the influencer fraud, Nomics summit we had here in New York, it was terrific.

Brett Garfinkel (34:35):

There was a moment where George hammer of IBM was talking about logos that signify or symbolize certain, certain insights you know ratings for a movie or something. You understand what you’re getting into with that? And there’s a trust factor with it. So what I asked him was if you applied that same vetting to a certification and you understood it, you asked all the right questions and at the end, you signed off on it. And now you have 10 influencers, five of them have that certification and five do not, are you more inclined to work with the five who do? He said, absolutely. It’s in our DNA. Is there one brand out there who CMO or CEO would say, no, that’s not in our DNA. We don’t do we operate them? Right. So we have the ability to do that.

Brett Garfinkel (35:36):

Right. And all I ask of every brand marketer out there is it find a company that is positioned as unbiased, independent, not a vendor in any way, shape or form, no horse in the race. And then vet them, ask the following questions. How do you collect data first and foremost, number two. How do you adhere to all the privacy laws that exist? What is your fraud methodology? Are you working with the ARF advertising research foundation, the media ratings, council tag, trust, accountability group, have they vetted you? And then if I agree with that, implement, follow the law rules with it and create your own best practices and standards for your firm, your brand, your agency. There’s no reason not to don’t wait for the industry to regulate, regulate yourself.

Terry Tateossian (36:33):

Absolutely. but something I, I, I want you to talk about it. Cause a lot of people, I think have a trouble with this agencies in particular is how do you aggregate all of the metrics from all the different platforms? Cause somebody might be considered an influencer on YouTube, but not necessarily have the metrics on Instagram and then Snapchat ticktack. And well,

Brett Garfinkel (36:57):

First of all, we, we are, that’s a good question. We are, we are tapped into the API APIs and that’s a key word, API snap, Snapchat, and tick tock do not have, so they are not part of silo right now. I hope someday they do. That that’s transparency right there. So YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. All right. When the creator authenticates in, it’s like one, it takes one to two minutes and it asks them which platforms they want to authenticate it. And if they’re on all three or four, if they’re posting content on it, they authenticate them with that. When the brand sets up a campaign when they’re setting up a campaign and inviting the creators in for that data, they put on the campaign, what platforms will be included in this campaign. So the machine knows where to pull from and they only see the data from that they’re paying for.

Brett Garfinkel (37:50):

They don’t see all the creators data, all of their other data. They’re just shared that data. Each of the posts right in the platform. So they could see the macro to the micro, the whole aggregated whole campaign, all the impressions combined to each creator, to each post. Okay. So you can really get all the information. And you also have benchmarks. Think about this way. If you do something a hundred times and I looked at every single metric involved, you will have an average for each one. Now you do a new one. We would be able to compare those metrics to your average. And that way we would understand performance where you above the average or below. And right now that’s a performance KPI that no, one’s really looking at. They’re looking at the snapshot, just that one instant. And there’s no way of evaluating that unless you compare it to the history.

Brett Garfinkel (38:40):

Exactly. Right. So we have those four platforms that really the industry wants to get, we have to get Instagram right first because that’s where all the fraud is happening. That’s 70% of the brand campaigns for influencer marketing are taking place, but we do not ignore the other platforms. And it will grow in the future if people want Twitch to be included Pinterest, whatever it may be. We have that ability as long as they have an API. Okay. And look, I, I want Facebook’s to be policing. I want them to come in and evaluate how we’re doing. That’d be great, but the ones that help us weed it out, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re protecting the rights of the careers and really that’s what the platforms want. I always remember when I met with YouTube back in the day, they said we are built for the creator. Okay. We are creator first. And the funny thing is when we started this company, we set the same thing. We are creator first. And that means we have to weed out those creators who are not true influencers. We’re not the Gestapo going out, creating havoc where we’re really trying to organize. And this is about influencer marketing. Anyone can be a creator, not everyone can be an influencer, so protect their rights and then protect the brands as well, the whole ecosystem.

Terry Tateossian (40:00):

What do you think about the controversy going on right now in the political campaigns where they’re de meriting certain profiles? How does that account in,

Brett Garfinkel (40:11):

I mean, who’s the one who’s making that determination. Right? Right. Look, everyone has a right to do what they want, how it affects them. The reality is in my world where an advertiser is paying a creator to promote their product. We need transparency. We need trust. And it will benefit both the creator and the brand. No more of these one-offs. We want brand ambassadors. And how do you become an ambassador for my brand first? I know that your audience is authentic. I know that I’m not a brand. What if I’m a political party? If I’m a political party and I like the content that you’re doing you know, am I paying you? Someone once told me if you want to talk about my product or whatever, I’m endorsing and say, great, Hey, God bless you. But the minute I pay you for your inventory, you are a publisher and I will treat you no differently than I treat other publishers, magazines, television networks websites.

Brett Garfinkel (41:15):

And, but what happens when the platform itself, itself? Well, there is the platform. Look, it changes their algorithms, changes their look. Someone once said to me, wimpy, great. If you could just get the raw data. Yeah. Right. My company is going to walk into Facebook and say, hi, hi, look, you know, like the little net to the super giant, the only way that happens is if we, we showed that we could actually regulate this industry properly and it’s moving along and it’s bringing in a lot of money into the space and that the brands lock arms with the real influencers and they walk into a Facebook and say, look, but give us more information. We’ll put more money into it. We’ve got 70 billion TV dollars just sitting there. That’s gettable. And we want to give it to you because we believe in influencer marketing, we believe it’s the most effective, fastest growing customer acquisition method.

Brett Garfinkel (42:09):

And we want to support it, but help us see the real data that’s happening. That’s the only chance I don’t even know if that will happen right now. The best game is can we do it better today than what’s currently happening? We can absolutely certify better. Every creative they should be licensed, get licensed. If you’re doing it the right way, you have nothing to fear of anything to gain. Okay. And don’t wait for the brands to ask. Don’t wait for that. Be leaning forward. If you’re telling managers, if I’m CAA UTA, why would I not be telling all my creators get certified? Someone said to me, the other day, they had about 50 creators in this town boutique firm. He said well, the brands aren’t asking me for this yet. So I’ll just wait until they ask. And I said, let me ask you a question.

Brett Garfinkel (42:58):

If you took all 50 of your creators and they authenticated, it took one to two minutes. And let’s just say, half of them came back certified. If no one’s asking for this information, then you have no negative response to that. You’re just business as usual. But for those who do ask, Hey, we’d like to work with creators who are certified. Now you have an answer. You have some handful of creators who are, and you can also upsell. You can now go the brands and say, guess what? I’ve creators who are verified. Their audience is authentic and the performance from a third party. And so how is this bad in a way? And yet you’re still waiting on them to understand it

Terry Tateossian (43:40):

That people don’t understand right now that that’s even an option. They’re not even thinking about it. They, I think most people don’t understand the technology required to even make something like this. Like I’m fascinated by what it takes to gather all the data. You know, I’m assuming you have some level of machine learning and yeah, so predictive analytics and so forth. And you’re, snapshotting different benchmarks

Brett Garfinkel (44:13):

Real time. And you have the benchmark, so you could compare it to the benchmarks, but, and then it starts to learn. And what will happen is if anyone out there, if plays fantasy football. Okay. when I started with my league, my buddy is in Baltimore. Shout out to them, go be they we, it was very simple. CBS SportsLine took the stats from the game and just turned it into a score and we could do it manually probably, and be maybe off by percentage points. But generally speaking, it was very straightforward. Now I have a game coming up Sunday. It’s already predicted the score of my game. They’re predicting it. Y w w we have much more advanced technology here where you will have a campaign coming up. You will know who you’re working with the time of the year, what platforms they’re on, and it will actually predict how they should fare. And then you could compare your data to that prediction and see, did we actually, you know, go over or below? And that’s a key performance metrics. And that’s what, that’s not so far away to be able to do that.

Terry Tateossian (45:23):

It makes complete sense to me.

Brett Garfinkel (45:25):

Yeah, it does. And you’re so smart.

Terry Tateossian (45:28):

Not really, if it believe me, if it makes sense to me, I think that a lot of people are thinking about it already.

Brett Garfinkel (45:35):

Look, this, this is my plead to the industry. Can I get a plea now? You know, just plea to everyone right now.

Terry Tateossian (45:40):

I don’t think you need to plea. I think it’s, it’s pretty obvious that there’s a ton of room for improvement here. We’re in the wild, wild West, and we need to quantify our activities.

Brett Garfinkel (45:53):

Look, shout out to the large agencies of group M’s IPG who are really taking the initiative to to, to really get this in place. We can move faster. The Unilevers, the Proctor and gamble is out there. The biggest, they’re the ones who move mountains here. And, and it’s, that’s where Digiday and add. We can add each right about this the New York times, when they do something, they get the most press. So I say to everyone out there, first and foremost, the principal agent problem, you are a vendor. You are measurement separate. The two, can’t be the same. That’s number one, then certification. Don’t use people who are pushing, pushing a button who are scraping data and violating privacy laws. That’s pay attention to that. That’s do it the right way. That accompany, who positions himself such as silo to verify, to certify and if comfortable implement, put into the contracts, creators, talent managers lean forward, understand this is good.

Brett Garfinkel (47:00):

If I’m CAA or ICM, UTA, digital brand architects, I want those creators. I’m working with to be authenticated, silo certified. And I want to tell all the brands have we only work with creators who are certified, so they feel safe and confident with that. And then that started looking at the metrics differently, do away with the vanity metrics. Let’s start looking at effective reach, effective engagement. We have those performance data points. It’s create how many brands you walk in now and say, where are your key KPIs? They don’t even know. So that’s, that’s a figure that out, right? Get your standards, regulation that the benchmarks in place, and now watch what happens. It will be beautiful. So much money will come into the space. Everyone rides the elevator up, do away with the influencer fraud tax better performance will follow better talent pool. And that’s why I would love to see before my time is up.

Terry Tateossian (47:57):

Awesome. Well, thank you, Brad so much. How can people find you?

Brett Garfinkel (48:00):

Well, let’s go the go check out, meet silo.com. Spend time on the site. If you’re a creator register, get in a, if you’re a brand call us, that’s get first. Let’s get the standards, benchmarks best practices in place for your firm. It’s very easy to do. And then let’s start implementing by the yeah. MEETSYLO.com. We’ll see you there.

Terry Tateossian (48:24):

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. I learned a lot. I feel like this is definitely the way the future is heading.

Brett Garfinkel (48:35):

I hope so. And I’ll be here anytime you need me. I love this. Awesome. Thank you. Take care.

Terry Tateossian (48:44):

Thanks for listening to the amplified podcast. Follow us on our social channels and subscribe on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify pod, bean, or wherever you get your podcasts on the next episode, stay tuned for more trailblazing insights, energy and culture to help fuel your pursuit in the modern digital era.

Are Marketers Ready for Virtual Assistants?

 Virtual assistants (VAs) are coming, and as we further immerse ourselves in the digital world we’re better off for it. Who doesn’t benefit from dictating our text messages to Alexa as we squeeze more social responsibilities into each trafficky drive? Or asking Google Home for a serenade as you change diapers and dodge projectile baby food? 

It does seem possible we could fall into a social quagmire like Joaquin Phoenix’s character Theodore does in Spike Jonze’s Her, but martech isn’t so much presently concerned with this area of virtual assisting and cyber-social catastrophe. Marketers can expect a whole new realm of bi- and multilateral audible marketing, and those who think ahead will capitalize on it big time. Check out these areas where marketers can expect the trends and strategize for the near and distant futures.  

VAs in the web

Imagine a social media channel where marketers can speak directly to consumers with audible VAs rather than with chatbots. The emotional bond tightens and presses on the consumer for a greater reaction. If developers can tap into APIs and integrate their templates, a much more bespoke and open marketing experience will rock the consumer nation.  

Will ecommerce sites open up their APIs more freely than Facebook, Snapchat, or LinkedIn? It’s anyone’s guess right now, but it does seem intuitive that it will help merchants sell more. Installing brand-bespoke VAs into ecommerce APIs can transform a very 2D experience into an audible-enhanced hyper-interactive one. The elderly and those with mental or physical hardships that prevent them from outside shopping will have a 3D reason to buy online.

Ho about the website upgrade you’ve been wanting? Picture your products jumping off the screen in 3D. There are already holographic iterations for smartphones being developed, but reviewers don’t seem to be impressed yet. Other holographic explorations include holographic concierges that are mapped to real faces. Some affordable options, like holographic projectors and projector fans, are already trickling into the market, but it will take a leap in the technology to get up to consumer expectations. 

Smartening your world

The next time you’re in the market to buy a refrigerator in the next few years, you might notice that many are equipped with smart features. This sets the arena where a battle of privacy and convenience will have an epic battle. Which rooms of your home would you allow VAs to access so you can streamline your hectic schedule and, for instance, automate the order of that Death Wish Coffee you so desperately need to spark your day? Alexa, Google Home, Siri: they’re just the beginning of smart living. Soon all your devices will communicate autonomously through the Internet of Things (IoT). This isn’t just where the office blends with the bathroom and kitchen work can be done in the bedroom. The market goal will be eliminating home labor entirely. Ideal for those always on the run, home VAs can actually help reduce overbuying and hoarding by automating stock supplies—an eco-friendly technology that even Neo-Luddites might get behind.    

Once we’ve allowed VAs the run of the home, we might as well see what they can do on the streets. History is actually familiar: autonomous vehicles can be sourced to da Vinci’s self-driving cart. Essentially VAs on wheels, we’re all familiar with them to some degree, but what would life be like if Walmart-type robots fanned out into the streets of your city, directing tourists and traffic, cleaning up accidents, delivering food and gear? Sure, we wouldn’t want to enter a surveillance state that resembles the ‘social credit system’, but wherein citizens consent to automated assistance, cities can start to accommodate residents and tourists in whole new, hopefully practical, ways.

VAs in their heads

This is the part where you cringe from some futurist already speaking of a Fifth Industrial Revolution, one where the natural and digital worlds coalesce in a kind of cyborg league, where the lines of demarcation between man, animals, nature, and machines become blurred. Robotic and genetic technologies are, indeed, being developed to ‘optimize’ human and animal capabilities. If the money is available, who might be tempted? And how real or invasive will VAs need to become before they’re deemed unethical and banned by authorities? Not only are scientists developing technology whereby rats can be controlled with smartphones, called brain-machine interfaces (BMIs), brain-brain interfaces (BBIs) have the proficiency to even cut out the smartphone entirely so that human brains can control the locomotion of cyborg animals—and potentially humans even—wirelessly.

 Perhaps the realization of this tech for consumers is way ahead of our time; perhaps not. But regardless of how virtual assistants will become more pronounced in our lives, the possibilities run far and wide, and not just for marketers. Some things are evidently clearer: all of these possibilities are already in or out of testing phases. Now deciding how we want this technology to pervade our lives is only a matter of ethical query and practical law and time. 

How Holography Will Refit Martech

Holography was invented by Nobel Laureate Dennis Gabor in 1948, but most people didn’t know it existed until 1976 when films like Logan’s Run and Star Wars hit the screens. (“Imagine a world in which you need never be alone. You touch a switch, turn a dial, and the perfect lover steps into your arms…”) After these blockbusters, it’d be strange to see a sci-fi film without some holographic stimulus.

 As cool as it is, as vital as it is for Trekkies universe-wide, holography has had some ups and downs since its debut. Remember the lull a few years back after the hype of its initial debut died down? Long gone. Holography has seen a revival recently, owing to advances in deep learning that have minimized hardware and reconstructed the holographic paradigm with data-driven performance. It’s opened up new opportunities in imaging systems in myriad fields—the medical, automotive, entertainment, military, botany, retail, laser science, and data storage fields just to name a few. The medical holography market alone is expected to grow to $4.04 billion by 2025, according to a report by Million Insights last year.

 There are some almost speechless advancements in the field lately. A team at Duke University has overcome bulky optical components to develop a better way to display 3D colors that can be used for smartphones, AR glasses, and heads-up displays (HUDs). At UC Berkeley, neuroscientists are using holographic projections in mice brains to edit sensory input by activating or suppressing thousands of neurons simultaneously. When actuated in humans, the technology could have life-changing effects. Director of the Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute, Ehud Isacoff, says, “By encoding perceptions into the human cortex, you could allow the blind to see or the paralyzed to feel touch.”

 The holographic revival, of course, reveals fascinating promises for many areas of business and commerce. Less invasive than robots, and a more versatile medium for marketing in general, holograms will start to find their way into our most frequented environments. Marketers should be looking forward to holography as a new realm to develop and showcase their promotions. They can start thinking about holographic prototypes and how such models can take shape in the martech field. Here are a few areas where holography will soon affect the marketing world.  

AR vs. robots

Mixed feelings echoed through the Walmart isles as robots fanned out onto floors across the nation recently. Although these robots are used to automate “unpopular” jobs at the colossal everything-chain, from doing inventory to cleaning spills, holograms could be used to save space and augment the shopping experience. It’s sometimes trying to find employees to field questions in stores. Product service holograms can be projected from every zone. Less invasive than robots, floating holograms can spot spills and run inventory themselves like phantoms.   

Back to retail 

Marketers keep getting interesting glimpses of how holography can invade the shopping experience in films like the Minority Report (2002) when Tom Cruise’s character walks through a mall and gets bombarded in frenetic advertising. Despite the dystopian scene, viewers saw how the mall could evolve. Imagine shoppers wowed by their favorite stars modeling clothes throughout stores. It seems obvious that holograms will give retail a shot in the arm, but e- and m-commerce will benefit too, since shoppers can get a 3D feel for the products they’re considering from the convenience of various locations. The harder to reach demographics will have another way into the shopping experience. 

In the holographic flesh

Michael Jackson, Frank Zappa, and Tupac are just a few superstars that have been holographically woke from the grave to bless the stage once again. In order to be built, these holograms are scanned and shaped by archival photos and footage, then placed on invisible film where it’s stretched at an angle with an LED projector, creating the 3D illusion, explains Eyellusion CEO Jeff Pezzuti. This tech combined with voice and facial reenactment will bring animation to life and give marketers more tools and material to launch ultramodern campaigns.  Movies and plays will come of the screen and fill the lounge. Gaming will come off the screen like Pokémon Go. The Call of Duty will animate the real neighborhood and get kids off the couch again. If users can see Elvis drink a Coke in their kitchen, they just might consent to the advertisement. 

Heads-up displays

Volkswagen has acquired a stake in SeeReal holographic technologies, which will create 3D heads-up displays that show holographic data to users without them needing to look away from viewpoints. We’ve seen this kind of holographic dashboard in plenty of sci-fi films, thus “transforming illusion into reality.” Volkswagen says, “Potentially hazardous situations on the road will be projected into the driver’s environment in three dimensions, ‘touchable’ displays will be suspended instead of controls, partners and telephone conversations will appear as holograms, passengers will be able to play hovering three-dimensional Tetris…” The company thinks that traditional dashboards may even be replaced by this touchable augmented display technology one day. Whether advertising on these virtual platforms will be allowed will depend on laws and consumer acceptance, but agile marketing teams could get ahead of the curve and start thinking of how to holographically position their ads in vehicles before competitors roll over to it. 

We can bet it forward that negative spaces will get an animation upgrade on city streets, in offices, shops, restaurants, stages and venues, our homes and even places of worship. Hopefully the technology will be noninvasive and tastefully done. Regardless, depending on the ethos and laws governing advertising, our spatial experiences will be forever changed. Even physicists are using holograms to reconcile the fissure between Einstein’s theory of gravity and quantum mechanics. It might turn out that holograms, these strange phantoms of reality, just might be the keys to unlock the obscurest secrets of our universe.  

For the episode audio, please check out our podcast page. 

Terry Tateossian (00:00):

Today we have Dan Garraway from Wirewax who’s going to talk to us about how computer vision and artificial intelligence is going to change the landscape of video creation and video content in general and how we consume it. Welcome. Thank you. So tell me, how did you get started in this field?

Dan Garraway (01:03):

Well, we came from a combination of backgrounds, Steve and myself, the cofounders, so, production, TV production generally. We were actually making a lot of TV content at the time of, quite a lot of, I’d say transients of movement towards digital, but not really getting there. And so fairly early on in the time that I met Steve, where we were doing a lot of TV production. We started specializing in online content, which was a lot shorter form, and honestly you could turn it around much quicker. It wouldn’t be six to six months to two years to make a TV show. It’d be, you know, knock something out in two weeks and get paid on the third week. So that kind of mentality led to a much more effective business. And that’s where we start seeing the opportunities for taking what was a fairly dumb asset, video, and what is a very connected field, the internet. And I’m saying, why are these two not more connected? Why is a video the most digital and perhaps arguably the most powerful asset of our time sitting in a very digitally connected environment. And yet the computer’s got no idea what’s displaying. It’s just displaying pixels. So you know, that ultimately was the challenge we were trying to tackle with the technology.

Terry Tateossian (02:22):

So tell me how, how did you guys come up with, um, the interactivity of, uh, the content and content itself? What were some of the obstacles that you envisioned going forward into the future?

Dan Garraway (02:40):

Well, you know, I say this is, you know, coming from the creative background, but creatives are interested in creating, they’re not actually interested in the technology. The technologies are just an implementation of a way of getting to the creative. And I think that’s the same for everybody in that industry. So when we started creating this technology, we’re aware that it couldn’t just be making it, you know. The outcome wasn’t just what it was about. It’s about the method of how you make interactive experiences in the first place. So to make that interesting and exciting and just as creative as the production, you needed to use computer vision, machine learning, to understand the video. That was where we principally started. So the first hires we ever made in the company were actually computer vision. And we set about even before it’s really popularized as a concept computer vision still nascent perhaps, but it’s much more well known now than it was when we started it. It was obvious that we needed to use the technologies of the web and, broadly speaking, the technologies of computer vision and machine learning to accelerate the creation process for interactivity. And to be honest with you, we look back at the history of interactive video. That’s always been a problem because it tried to, video is always proven successful every single time it’s ever been used since the red button in the UK. They had that. In the US there’s been various implementations of very basic interactive technologies. But the problem is they’re so labor intensive to create and that stifles the creative process. So that has to change. And that’s where we started. And viewers and the content creators and now both at the same place. And this is a very exciting time for interactive, if I’m honest. Netflix really legitimize the market at the start of the year as well by investing in interactivity. So it’s a really exciting moment where people are at the same place at the same time.

Terry Tateossian (04:38):

So talk to me a bit about how do content agencies, how do they create content currently?

Dan Garraway (04:46):

In terms of TV content or YouTube like branded content?

Terry Tateossian (04:51):

Generally.

Dan Garraway (04:51):

Well, I mean the creation process, and I think this is part of the problem, hasn’t really changed. You’ve seen even very, on the face of it, very advanced companies in the movie and media industry using very antiquated processes to create content. So, you know, that’s meant when you’re making a TV or a movie, you’re still logging with manual labor, what’s happening inside the video content. You’re still using very basic implementations of technology like Excel spreadsheets to see, to work out what that content is and when it’s happening. And even just down to sending content around, you’re sending it around on hard drives, which is only a really a marginal improvement above tape, which is how people used to send it around. The industry is really getting to realize that these antiquated methods and not just slowing down the production, which is a hassle. But they’re limiting the creativity again. And there’s a really interesting white paper. Anyone look it up, MovieLabs white paper, which is all about how the movie industry is needing to look forward to the year 2030 as a vision. And it’s all around this topic, and this is exactly where we’ve been living for, for years now, is that the video production industry, the TV production movie industry, has been antiquated for a very long time. And that’s been workable. But now in an era where everyone is needing to pump out content all day long, every day, and if you’re not a brand in your TV or movie maker, you’ve got to get these TV shows out in the market much more quickly because you got to get them on an OTT, which is launching. So often we’ve see an OTT launching every week at the moment, whether it be a plus or a max or any other sort of label that’s added onto the end of the brand name these days, there is an OTT for everything. And so when you’ve got that thirst of content, those antiquated manual methods to create content just don’t work.

Terry Tateossian (06:58):

Exactly. I feel you’re pain, because I’m familiar with those antiquated methods. So talk to me a bit a bit about computer vision and machine learning. How does that get applied to content creation and content production?

Dan Garraway (07:19):

It really starts, I’d say, so mostly like pre-processing to the post production. So once, well, I use post-production slightly differently when I’m talking about it because when I’m talking about it, I’m thinking about the process of video creation that probably starts after the edits are, or at least a first edit. So you upload video content or you transfer it into our system and that’s where a bunch of about 10 to 12 processes will be applied to it to understand where scenes are first of all, you know, kind of an edit decision list to then understand what the people and objects are in that video and where they are right down to like, mine your face and where it is in the frame. Right down to scene analysis and even context of what’s happening in that scene. So all of that creates a kind of a bucket of metadata which has been automatically created, not by humans, which has been the way of doing it in the past. And once those processes are complete, it can be used to make a very fast interactive experience. So you could potentially, for example, I’ve been working with some news organizations recently and every time a politician appears, for example, you can automatically make by our profiles come up their voting record, for example, just coming up in the frame at the same time. That doesn’t need a person. You know, all those sorts of things can be applied to the day and add to the creative outcomes.

Terry Tateossian (08:54):

So, in essence, you can create a very personal experience based on the audience information that you have.

Dan Garraway (09:04):

Audio and content information, yeah. I mean it goes both sides because the minute you are using interactivity, you are slowly being able to touch and click what’s happening in the video. You can then use that data in itself to educate a better process. So whether that be in sort of retargeting afterwards for a shoppable use case, things they were interested in the video, for example. And if anybody doesn’t know why Wirewax, you know, you can see some examples on the website, Wirewax.com and you can see how you can literally touch items or interests inside the video and it then comes up with further information. In vision. You don’t have to go to other websites. This is all about inside the creative experience. You can see additional layers. I kind of think about our technology offering as a creative tool set, as Photoshop for interactive video if you’re familiar with any sort of Adobe products like that. And the viewer. I kind of consider it as them having kind of like, do you remember Minority Report like back in the day, that sort of movie where you’re interacting with information and visual sense. That’s exactly how we, how we see the viewer experiences when they want to. They can explore context and content when where it’s interesting to them that data point can then be addition to use by them. I would like to explore this further please and send some information to my email address or anything like that. Very basically or more sort of on the creator owner side, you can then use that information to make a better experience afterwards. And then on the content creator side you could, and we see a lot more of this now, people are making TV shows interactive. You can see what people actually interact with in the TV show to make a better TV show in the first place. And this has been a really interesting trend. Netflix has been doing interactive as well in the last a year, as I say. And they’ve been learning about what people do inside those interactive experiences to then generate a better experience for the next episode.

Terry Tateossian (11:03):

Yeah, and especially for advertisers, I feel like, you know, for right now the way things work is that video is just this black box and you have no idea what’s going on with the the audience, what they’re actually paying more attention to, less attention to, what to add more of, where to place advertising messages and so forth. So you’re kind of opening up the black box and you’re providing a lot more data on the behavioral analytics of how advertisers could potentially use this type of technology.

Dan Garraway (11:37):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is why smaller, more nimble agencies and content and production is going in house as well, is because people want that data and they want to own it. The days of making a hit TV commercial that, you know, wins the praises and it gets the accolades of the industry, but and somehow translate spirals into outcomes for the business. I think those are still going to happen because of the, the advertising advertising industry exists, but it will happen less. And I think the stuff that’s going to be moving the business outcomes forward, and I think this is the thing, I always stress, the things that these are moving the business outcomes forward are going to be data points that you can learn from. And that’s really the ongoing continuous success of a business. I say, and I keep stressing this business outcomes because I’m quite frankly tired of the industry and the brands industry as well. You know, referring to success as the KPI of like how many eyeballs they got to the content. I’m not alone in that by the way. Many people have, have got tired of that. Eyeballs does not mean a thing. On average Americans see 5,000 to 10,000 advertising messages a day. You’re completely pointless in that message unless you have some tie back to your business outcome. So business outcomes means interactivity. It means data points to understand the audience that they’ve imparted by the way zero party data. And it means, you know, using that decision, that data and that experience to delight the customer, to delight the viewer and to make it better, more useful journey for them in the relationship with you as a brand. That means, you know, more standardized metrics like engagement. You could ask everyone in this room, everybody has a different understanding of what engagement means. That’s a problem. And you know, these sorts of elements have never been tackled because the entire media industry and advertising media industry, I mean now, and it has been driven by the costs for impressions. You know, that’s the currency CPM and it doesn’t bear any relationship to the outcome for the business.

Terry Tateossian (13:57):

So in, in essence, I think the, uh, computer vision and AI technology apply to the actual experience of viewership. The way that I’m seeing it is that it’s taking what used to be, for lack of a better word, a billboard on the highway and creating a personalized approach with targeted, segmented, different audience segmentation piece of content that then you can kind of cater, and I’m sure eventually, you know, you’ll be able to not just offer, interactive experiences, but you could also offer very personalized experiences based on what is the psychographic profile of that particular viewer at a time of what type of data points and information you have about them and what you think that they’ll prefer: a red over a yellow shirt in the actor’s scene.

Dan Garraway (14:56):

Yeah, all of those are true and I think that, a large, again, problem with the industry is all we’ve done with video is take it from the corner of the room where it used to be a CRT display with a very big back to it, which used to have to stand out from the side of the wall through to a smaller screen that’s thinner and it’s in your hand generally speaking. That aside from color has been all that’s happened with video. Zero other than that. Okay, I’ve heard some people say, yeah, we’ve had HD great HD, better, better quality. But again, we’re not fundamentally using technology to improve the most powerful medium of our time. It’s completely ridiculous. And so that has been the case for a long time. It is changing now and there’s a real need for it to change because of the things we’re talking about. OTT launching so much more of these content distribution outlets, the marketing industry needing to use video as a much more always on concept, but it’s a struggle but it needs to happen because the outcomes will be better, more effective content for everyone and that’s more interesting. You know, I don’t want to watch four or five commercials before I want to watch the TV show that I want to watch and that needs to happen at the moment because people were lazy, didn’t actually innovate in advertising and video. They are now. So we don’t, we need to encourage these, these continued growth points, but it’s innovation in video has been surprisingly lacking.

Narrator (16:26):

Hold that thought. Let’s take a quick break and thank our sponsors. The production of the amplified podcast has been brought to you by Socialfix Media. Socialfix is a transformational growth hacker agency focused on emerging technology platforms, video and podcast production, content marketing and overall startup strategy. Socialfix has helped over 300 clients generate millions of dollars in revenue, fundraising and profit. If you’d like help launching or growing your business, visit social Socialfix.com.

Terry Tateossian (17:02):

Walk me through. I wake up tomorrow and it’s 10 years later. What is my experience with video viewership?

Dan Garraway (17:16):

I think, one of the answers to this is not what you want to hear, but it shouldn’t be necessarily coming from me alone. One of the downsides of a lacking innovation is that, and I refer to this a bit a few times, is I wear a kind of marriage counselor. That’s the way we see why wax between creatives and technologists and really, although I’ve been a creative in the past, that’s my sort of history. I’m leaning more on the technologist side now and I don’t, the answer to that question can come from technologists alone. I think the exciting thing about Charlie Brooker and Black Mirror on Netflix is that a type of thing that that TV show is the be all and end all of interactivity by the way. It’s got, you know, just the start, but it’s not being explored and it is starting to, with things like those movements. So the answer to that is probably just as diverse as virtually any answer that we can, you know, talk about with any of the subjects you’re covering. It should be as creative as the creative industry and the answer to that, I should be able to use every piece of technology, coming back to my Photoshop interactive video concept with wire racks, I should be able to use any interactive technology, any piece of technology to make a better story be told. And so with that, be me using voice to interact with the video over touching or clicking. Yes, probably. Would that be an emotion analysis analysis with my consent to be part of the experience? Would it be using computer vision to perhaps incorporate me into the show in some ways quite possibly. All of these elements could contribute. We talked about 5G as well. I mean that’s another area where low latency and edge computing will allow us to iterate with widen wide ranges of metrics on the fly about what’s happening in these tracks of experience. So for example, you could even change the, uh, the, the way the TV show is going based on the interactions happening in different places in the country or the or even the world. Like these are all very varied, um, uh, parts to how we tackle ’em or how we will wake up in 10 years time. But only now really are we starting to explore them because creative and technologists have come to the same place at the same time.

Terry Tateossian (19:44):

So give me some examples on that, like real life examples where maybe some of the challenges that we’re facing today or the way that we’re used to things being, how’s that going to be impacted?

Dan Garraway (20:00):

Well, I would start with something very simple. TV news. A lot of very antiquated technologies that cost a lot of money burn in infographics, into TV content. Those infographics like we’re probably using here today, you know, we will have a, you know, a link to our app. We’ll have a burn in title of our names and perhaps our companies, I can’t explore that without going onto Google and like typing that in, which is a very manual, boring process and nobody will probably do it. If that infographics is interactive, I can touch and explore and find out information and it connects to another piece of the web. Then I’ve got video being the equivalent of what a document was with the link. I’ve started to explore and connect the asset and what’s more to the point where it’s in the asset to the rest of the web, which is useful for both parties that the viewer and useful for for the content creator because it gets more valuable outcome for everyone.

Terry Tateossian (21:03):

So you’d be able to watch the presidential debates and guess when a candidate mentions a particular fact, you can have a pop up that will display the fact you can look more into that or?

Dan Garraway (21:20):

Yeah. And, and as I say, it could be very diverse. How that plays out. The storytelling and narrative elements of this are probably the most interesting explorations because you can start to see that when creators are not thinking in that two dimensional, perhaps broadcast side of the business, which is, I’ve got this, you know, story and I’m going to broadcast it to you. What if the, it turns into a two way conversation? Well, if that viewer is part of the creative process, I mean, you’ve seen this happen already. It’s not completely new. I mean, everyone’s tried these sorts of things, but the difference is now making it scalable, which is what we’re about as a technology company. So for example, you know, there’s been, you know, very successful sort of Stargate or something like that. An MGM property, which have been very successful outside of their commissioned seasons on TV and movies to connect with audiences and they’ve actually reacted to their loyal audiences. That’s because Stargate is a viable show outside of, and it has a very loyal fan base, but there’s no reason to say that, you know, you can iterate with your audience and make TV shows that are narratively changing accordance to the audience’s involvement and interaction when you start to have the technologies which speed the process up versus slow it down.

Terry Tateossian (22:53):

We covered a bit about the utopian view of how fantastic things could be. What would be some of the negative effects of this type of technology?

Dan Garraway (23:04):

Well I think it’s the same probably concerns with many new technologies. We’re always slightly afraid of them I think because generally it wields power in fewer and fewer places. And so, I’m an advocate for the general movements of the industry for the last few years to be more open and transparent about privacy. For example. One of the elements of that is, of course, computer vision can understand what’s going on. Then if facial recognition, other things come into that as well. You know, I think being as open and transparent as possible, um, is, is critical to doing this in a way which encourages people to participate and feel safe with these new ideas and creative approaches. But, you know, I, I get very bored in these sort of discussions with like, how to, you know, everything’s going to collapse on us and the world’s going to be occupied by machines. It’s not that because we are the people making this sort of stuff and this is the excitement of it is that we can participate in this and we have more ownership over that future than we would without it. So I think the principle for me is you offer viewers something they value and they’ll give you something back. So if that is the principle behind every sort of data point exchange, I think that’s a good thing. And that’s where creative pays. It plays a really important part. If you’re giving me a video, great. You know, 28,000 other businesses, they’re going to give me 10 videos a day on Instagram and every other social network. It doesn’t mean anything to me. If your message is slightly more impactful because that director was slightly more awake on that day, great. But if you’re starting to think as a business, how does this video strategically play into my business outcomes? And the interactivity extends into that. Then how. That’s where you start to translate creative into business outcomes and that’s where it gets exciting for all parties because they can see interactions they’re doing actually generate a better experience, whether that be the personalized itinerary on a travel video, for example. So now could go and take that and explore where and when I’m going to where I’m going to go on my holiday or anything like that. So, you know, it’s offering something to the viewer can then can then make the data exchange more equitable, equitable, I think.

Terry Tateossian (25:35):

Ultimately, the emerging media technology, so Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, there I suppose you can say kind of leaning in that direction because they’re, you know, they have a meteoric rise to the story functionality. So, you know, people obviously want that feature in the content that they’re consuming. By seeing real time what the creators doing, what they’re tagging, what they’re linking to, and they’re getting a better experience. They can react to things they can communicate with the other audience members and so forth. So this is obviously something that cannot be ignored by the Hollywood industry as well as any of the streaming services right now. So how long do you think it will be before we start seeing that type of technology rolling out?

Dan Garraway (26:27):

Well, I mean, it’s already happening. I mean, this could be launching next year, for example, Jeffrey Katzenberg and Meg Whitman launching that. And I think there’s some exciting aspects of that. I’ve seen some of the early versions of how that’s coming together. And I think it’s about time, honestly, that Hollywood was starting to tackle these sorts of different storytelling pieces. I don’t think it’s exclusive, by the way. I don’t think that though, just because we’ve got stories on Instagram and and other elements that are a bit more short form vertical formats. It doesn’t mean that that’s the only format. Now it’s again, diversity is like, they’re still going to be a place for a movie, a sit down watch feature film where you perhaps don’t even want to interact. There’s always going to be a place for TV episodes that have a more linear look and feel to them. I think there’s a thirst for viewers to be as creatively engaged. And I think that’s why, to be honest with you, when any product is launching, like take talks for example, which is obviously a little bit more notoriety recently when any of those things are launching in video and challenging the industry about people get behind them and are very excited about them. Honestly, we don’t yet know how tech talk is going to translate into business outcomes, but early adopters are probably doing it more for the marketing prowess of, of being involved than anything else. But, I think as an industry and as viewers, we get excited about it because innovation in the medium, something that we have just completely lacked. And so video from the Hollywood side of it with Quimby and others are not going to discount that there’s a, there’s some very exciting stuff happening underneath and beneath the scenes at the moment with some other very large media companies. It’s, it’s a good, is a good next five to 10 years of content, interesting times, I think, with technology we’ve done amongst it. And I think we will be the better for it.

Terry Tateossian (28:29):

Good point.

Dan Garraway (28:31):

Hopefully

Terry Tateossian (28:34):

I always say marketers ruin everything, so I’m sure we’ll figure out a way to take advantage.

Dan Garraway (28:41):

It’s possible. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it’s because I think though I come back to that point I was making earlier that I don’t think marketers can be to blame for the fact that their promotions, their livelihood are all related to fairly abstracted KPIs from real business outcomes. You know, I think, that’s also the downfall in my opinion of a large part of the very large media and advertising companies in the world is like, well what the industry is being preoccupied with for way too long is eyeballs and how to get as many eyeballs to content as possible. It then moved on a little bit to social shares. How many people can you get to share your content? Everyone got a little bit obsessed with that. But none of these things really indicate like where your relationship is with your viewer, where relationship is with your customer and leads I think quite a lot of self-indulgence. In my view, there is no place for self-indulgence in marketing videos and communications. Like if we used to face this a lot early on in our business. We used to walk into meetings with very well known companies and it’d be like, oh, these interactive elements. Yeah, they’re in the vision. They’re in the visual and it’s like, well, we can switch them off. But yes, they are like by default. And that’s because you’re educating your audience, you know, that they can interact with something and that’s part of that. And they’re like, yeah, we just don’t want anything in the, in the video. We just want to sort of made really nice, beautiful video. And it’s like, well, you can make these interactive elements beautiful as well. That’s part of the creative process. But that was all coming from this mentality of like, I want a really nice piece. I can put my show room. Whereas that’s what that motivation was. I’m interested in how can I make something that I’ll put on Vimeo or probably not on YouTube, but make to the market. And everyone will say, “Oh, you’ve made us such beautiful film.” Well, a beautiful film has its place, but that place for me is more often than not in the narrative area. And the consumer area of like storytelling and, you know, not as a brand necessarily. If it starts in that place, certainly not, it’s gotta be like not how do we make a really beautiful video. It’s gotta be what are we trying to do with video step one. Like that one video is now going to create a more tangible relationship with our viewer and our customer. Okay, well then we’ve got nothing in the conversation past this point about a beautiful video that given, right? We’re not going to go and make a shit video. We want to make somethings that looks nice. But step two then is if that’s our intended outcome, a better, more tangible relationship with our customer, then what are we doing in that video, which relates back to those, that mission. Are we going to just get what we need from views, our views counter? No. are we going to get like a percentage of, you know, completion. I mean possibly, but interaction is the only way, honestly, that you can do that because then you can start to say, well, the viewers sent lent forward on this, they interacted with this product. They then went on to investigate further. And by the way, these are not just stats I’m reading off now. There’s a fairly well known industry studies now from IPG media amongst others who say that interactivity makes 47% more time spent with video. It increases purchase intent, which has to be one of the most important metrics by nine times. And it’s 32% more memorable because people physically interact. There’s a tangible cognitive movement. So you know, these elements make for a more outcome driven use of video. And that’s a good conversation to have for the marketing industry, I think.

Terry Tateossian (32:42):

Absolutely. I mean anytime you align your business goals, which whatever they may be, brand awareness, demand generation, whatever that is to the content that you’re creating, it gives you a lot more reasons to produce what the customer audience is looking for. But the way that I’m seeing this also is, um, it’s the type of technology I feel like that will just obliterate the ad. I feel like it’s just not going to be necessary, right? Because ultimately you can place those type of cues into the actual content. So if you’re looking to just put out a straight-up advertisement or commercial, you no longer have to do that. You can actually insert your message and your product right into content that the viewer wants to see rather than interrupting them while they’re watching.

Dan Garraway (33:37):

Yeah, and I would argue by the way that already exists. I think when people hear that often their reaction is, “Oh, that just sounds like, you know, forced advertising.” I don’t actually think that’s the case. If you watch anything, um, people have a natural interest in what’s in the video or in the TV episode, you know, people have always wondered and otherwise we wouldn’t have like people going and buying like sneakers that celebrities wear. People are already naturally interested in those things. So connecting those things to the useful part of technology here and allowing them to interact and find out what it is or how they can explore it further and buy it potentially are all just useful elements. And by the way, I just think as well that this is part of like a better way of working for the industry because it’s a race to the bottom just to keep making more content. We’ve got to take a pause and say, “why are we making this content?” Because, you know, even OTTs and everyone else we’re talking about is really struggling on these production methods to get this content out. You know, your, your guy here had to walk up stairs and, and move around with all this camera kit and all this gear. It’s expensive, it’s annoying and it’s hassle to make content. So, you know, doing more of it doesn’t necessarily produce a better outcome. You’ve got to, you’ve got to like think about what you’re doing and what inside that experience relates back to the value to have to do probably just the right amount. You don’t need to make a hundred videos a day if you’re making one video a day that’s really successful and engaging.

Terry Tateossian (35:14):

I just literally had that conversation I think today. Yes. No, absolutely. So tell me the one thing that you would like our audience to take away from this episode.

Dan Garraway (35:31):

I think, I think now’s the time with technology just to experiment and, if you, if you were willing to put some work in, and I say that with purpose you can get some amazing business outcomes through force. I think the industry is starting to look at interactivity through Netflix and other validators in the market. But why, why be forced, you know, get ahead of everyone by taking a real purposeful take an approach to what technology can do for your video content. And, you know, there’s a promise land of a lot of rewards for people who are willing to invest right now. Because, you know, that the race to the bottom of making more video content is where everyone is going, most of the normal brands are going at the moment.

Terry Tateossian (36:27):

No, I agree. So how can people find you, Dan?

Dan Garraway (36:31):

Well, on our website is Wirewax.com. We do all the socials and stuff. I’m sure as well. I’m not big on the socials myself personally, but I used them for observing. But yeah, I would say it’s the best place. And of course I’m contactable myself on LinkedIn, which is probably the only social network I do use. So yeah, and just sign up and have a play. And I think, feel free to ask questions. It’s a new landscape and I don’t think we should be shy of admitting that. I personally have, you know, my cofounder as well, Steve. I have 10 years of experience in this particular area and we’re very willing to give it a, we’re working at sea level right across the media and publishing spaces, particularly right now, challenging their approaches to the way they use the medium. And we’re very happy to do that because we believe in the education of our experience about what has worked, but more importantly, sometimes what has not worked to make a better more successful outcome for everyone.

Terry Tateossian (37:32):

Wise words. And thank you very much for joining us today.

Dan Garraway (37:35):

Thank you. My pleasure.

Narrator (37:37):

Thanks for listening to the Amplified podcast. Follow us on our social channels and subscribe on Apple and Google podcast, Spotify, Podbean, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the next episode. Stay tuned for more trailblazing insights, energy and culture to help fuel your pursuit in the modern digital era.

__________________________

Entrepreneurs and CEOs alike are crowdfunding for venture capital (VC) for fruitful reasons. Not only is it a great way to gather funds to scale, it simultaneously spreads the word on brand and product ideas at a low cost entry. 

Get in the crowdfunding gold rush before it floods, and refer to our Forbes article, “Seven Crowdfunding Mistakes to Avoid,” for what to avoid and what to do better in your campaigns. It could make all the difference between landing that VC you need to scale or, all too often, ditching that precious idea and starting over.  

Check out the article on Forbes. 

Socialfix has helped over 300 clients generate millions of dollars in revenue, fundraising and profit. If you’re interested in learning more about how crowdfunding or another strategy can amplify your ideas and business, connect with us. 

There’s a silent revolution happening. Are you seeing it? By now you’ve heard of blockchain but you might not know that it will affect nearly every industry in some major way. Its decentralizing attraction is irresistible to consumers. To large entities, like banks, it provides a safe chain of data almost impossible to breach. 

Despite its universal appeal, the blockchain inception will be ignored by some. Nevertheless, being left behind is an option, and marketers should greet the change. Read our Forbes article, “Receiving Blockchain: What Marketers Should Expect in the Revolution,” to hear how martech will evolve and marketers can plan for and leverage the blockchains that lie just around the corner.

Check out the article on Forbes.

Socialfix is a transformational growth hacker agency focused on emerging technology platforms, video and podcast production, content marketing, and startup strategy. If you would like help launching or growing your business, connect with us.

Socialfix Media has been working hard into the new year to bring you some winning news and content. Clutch has awarded Socialfix with Top 1000 best global B2B service providers in 2019; Founder, Terry Tateossian, is publishing some fascinating Forbes articles about cutting-edge technologies in the martech space; and, the media company just released four new episodes with preeminent guests on the Amplified3 podcast.

Clutch 1000 award

Clutch, the leading B2B ratings and reviews platform, published its second annual ranking of the 1000 best B2B service providers from 35 countries and 374 cities around the world. Winners were selected by analyzing companies’ quality and quantity of client reviews, offered services, portfolio of clients, brand reputation, and visibility in their target market. Socialfix Media came in strong on the 2019 list. Socialfix is honored and would like to thank their clients and Clutch for the recognition.

Forbes publications

Can high EQ robots save the world? What can we expect in the emerging world of virtual assistants? How will blockchain change the martech ecosystem? What’s the best crowdfunding strategy for startups? If you’ve ever been interested in these topics and questions or are just starting to become intrigued, check out Socialfix Founder Terry Tateossian’s latest Forbes articles. In each piece, Tateossian reaches to the furthest points of emerging tech to bring you fresh and inspiring martech content that will surely change the way marketers see and work within the rapidly evolving martech space.

Amplified3 podcast releases

Socialfix recently launched a new batch of podcasts featuring some of tech’s industry leaders on Amplified3. Trailblazer of branding to video, Brett Garfinkel talks about the phenomenon of digital influencer marketing and how companies can filter the fake from the valid. Serial entrepreneur and pioneer of the internet, Miko Matsumura talks startups and crypto. Director of Technology, Mobile & Emerging Platforms at Discover, Tim McElreath gives a peek into the new wave of multimodal devices that are changing the face of digital TV. And entrepreneur, Arjun Rai talks about the trials and tribulations along the fruitful yet bumpy road of start-up life. Check out the episodes on Amplified3, on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Amplified3 delivers essential audio storytelling for the tech space.

Stay tuned for more upcoming news and content from Socialfix Media and Amplified3.

Alexa and Siri are just the beginning. Not too far in the digital future virtual assistant (VA) technology is going to be interwoven into our lives. Are marketers preparing for it?

Not only in social channels but e-commerce, websites, smart cities, and maybe even in your brain (via brain-brain interfaces) will virtual assistants remake the digital world. Imagine chatbots taking three dimensions and popping holographically off the screen and floating holographic city guides escorting tourists throughout smart cities. Even closer to our pockets, holographic smartphone technology will facilitate this UX magic right from users’ hands. 

What’s the future of VAs, and how can marketers leverage them for companies? Read our article, “How Marketers Can Prepare for AI-Based Virtual Assistants,” to take the first steps in understanding how to leverage this forthcoming avant-garde technology that will change the martech landscape and life in general.

Check out the article on Forbes.

Socialfix is a transformational growth hacker agency focused on emerging technology platforms, video and podcast production, content marketing, and startup strategy. If you would like help launching or growing your business, come connect with us.

Announcing Amplified3 Podcast

Amplified3 is a new podcast species uncovering the disruptive trends in entrepreneurship, startups, emerging technologies, and data science through unfiltered conversations with today’s top industry thought leaders. Join your host, serial entrepreneur and MIT Blockchain and AI expert, Terry Tateossian, as Amplified3 fits you with transformative knowledge to grow and scale your business and elevate your professional evolution. 

Naturally spirited, rigorous, yet fun and often impromptu. Hear from the blockchain pioneers, AI engineers, robotics specialists, agency change-makers, risk-takers and just general badasses leading their fields to new heights and changing the digital ecosystems forever. Listen for career changing advice and content now—and change your mind, experience the future.

The Expert Panel was initially published at Forbes.

Our founder and managing partner, Terry Tateossian, gives her take on the subject as well. You could read her  opinion under number 3. Find The Right Content For Your Target Audience

Here comes the full article:

There is no guarantee that a business’s social media posts will gain traction when they get posted. However, a company should at least be able to drive the engagement of some of its followers. A problem arises when engagement on all social channels is low or non-existent. If businesses continue to create and post content that doesn’t achieve their marketing goals, then their social media campaign is merely wasting marketing money.

For small businesses especially, each dollar they spend should give them returns. To help, we asked 12 members of Forbes Agency Council for advice on how companies can drive engagement of the content they post to make more efficient use of their social media marketing budget.

1. Reevaluate Your Audience

To address engagement you must first understand your audience, why they followed you and the value they hope to gain. For example, if they followed you based your “how-to” content, but now you post about “work pets,” there’s a disconnect that needs to be addressed before they’ll consider engaging. Engagement increases once you know what they expect and the role your brand plays in their lives. – Kevin Smith, Mighty Roar

2. Focus On One Platform At A Time

If you’re focusing on too many platforms at one time, you’re not really giving the dedicated attention each platform requires. My suggestion would be to concentrate on your largest platform and nurture it with consistent, meaningful daily content. – Raoul Davis, The Ascendant Group

3. Find The Right Content For Your Target Audience

It’s essential that social marketers leverage the metrics of their posts, considering the time and day of posts per social channel. Sometimes traditional marketing language, which perhaps worked on other forms of media, doesn’t stick to social audiences. A target audience must be fixed, and experimentation with language, scheduling and imagery may be the best way to find and gather engagement. – Terry Tateossian, Socialfix Media

4. Add Value Rather Than Noise

Many brands are obsessed with the idea of frequency to a fault. The fact of the matter is that not all content is created equal. If you have nothing to say, ask a question instead, or use a call to action to encourage engagement. I often tell my clients to think of content posts as invitations to converse and share, not tiny billboards that you throw out on the channel with pre-planned frequency. – David Harrison, EVINS

5. Interact With Other People’s Content

One of the biggest mistakes people make on social is posting content but not responding to other people’s content. Social media thrives on interaction. You have to like, share and comment on other posts to encourage people to do the same on yours. Also, if you do customer service, you have to respond as quickly and as personally as possible. – Christine Wetzler, Pietryla PR

6. Invest In A Paid Strategy

More content doesn’t mean more engagement. Most channels have different cadences that work better and those change by industry. However, the real key is investing in a paid strategy. Organic content will support your channel but social marketing in 2019 requires a targeted, always-on, paid strategy to keep pushing your message to the right audience. – Cj Roberts, Pandemic Labs

7. Start A Dialogue With Your Followers

Whenever clients come to me complaining about lack of engagement on their social media channels, I ask, “Well, did you ask them anything?” How can you expect to get a reaction if you’re not entering a dialogue with your followers. Start by asking simple questions. Last I checked, to get engaged, someone has to pop the question. Same is true for social media engagement. – Danica Kombol, Everywhere Agency

8. Plan Out Content Topics That Will Spark A Response

Lots of times, we’re guilty of making content to fill a content calendar and not making content that adds value to the customer. Start by creating a pipeline of content topics that have the goal of adding value to your customer in the form of getting engagement or getting a response. – Jim Huffman, Growthhit

9. Consider The Context Of Relationship

While it’s important that content is remarkable and share-worthy, the success in how far it spreads and the level of engagement is impacted more by the context of relationship and trust the audience has with the source sharing it. Humans are the medium. Finding and building relationships with the right influencers, advocates and communities to co-create and share your content is the solution. – Amanda Hite, Be The Change Revolutions

10. Focus On Quality Over Quantity

If you’re getting low engagement, focus on quality over quantity. Think to yourself, “Would I pay to promote this?” If not, don’t write it! Also, stay in touch with Google Trends, trending topics in the news and AdWords data to know what your customers are searching for and talking about to make sure your content is relevant. – Corbett Drummey, Popular Pays

11. Promote Your Content

You may post valuable content every day, but most of your audience won’t see it due to the algorithms. Business profiles are less favored by social channels and that’s a fact. If you want to reach more people, promote your content. There are many ways you can do it. – Solomon Thimothy, OneIMS

12. Learn From The Past

One of the greatest things about using the web for marketing is the ability to learn from the past. When trying to increase engagement, look at which posts have garnered the most (and least) engagement in the past. Do more of what has worked and less of what hasn’t. For example, if you find that photos with people in them resonate better with your audience, make sure you include people in photos. – Nancy Marshall, Marshall Communications